# How did the Russians actually influence the election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 12, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417 "2017-05-12T01:26:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/41 "2017-05-14T00:49:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I assume that every major social media platform (including the SDMB) has its share of such people. Average American Joseph Sixpack here. Mother Russia is kind, benevolent country, and Putin is teddy bear. NATO is obsolete and Eastern Europe none of our concern. But what do I know? I am ordinary American cowpoke like yourself. Have there been any suspected Russian trolls on this forum? I wouldn’t think the SDMB would be on their radar. They were more obvious on Reddit during the elections, or in Syria news articles. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/42 "2017-05-14T01:37:32Z")
I have no idea if they troll here, but the SDMB isn’t that small, and I think it punches above its weight in terms of influence. But I’m sure you are right about the main focus - I would expect lots of that sort of activity on Twitter, in the comment sections of major newspapers, large social media sites like Reddit. But the SDMB is pretty big, and has more than its share of serious people on it. Whether it has been a target of disinformation, I do not know. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/43 "2017-05-14T01:52:30Z")
It think that Bin Laden’s attempt to influence the '04 election worked. Before he released that video tape the Kerry and Bush line seemed ready to intersect. Afterward, it was like they bounced off each other. Anybody who says, regarding the '16 election that the Russian stuff didn’t affect their vote is ignoring the fact that there are folks out there that are not as bright as you, by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/44 "2017-05-14T08:38:49Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Anybody who says, regarding the '16 election that the Russian stuff didn’t affect their vote is ignoring the fact that there are folks out there that are not as bright as you, by a long shot. No doubt; however most people are aware there are dumb people voting in every election and most people know this is an essential part of democracy. You could pare down the qualifications for voting until every voter thinks the same as oneself but that would not be representative. Idiots are people too. And this is only a complaint for ‘the other side’: most electioneers will have come across voters determined to vote for their own side on foolish or spurious reasoning, and few make a strenuous effort to dissuade them — from listening to one who made their choice on the grounds one’s candidate ‘_is a good christian_’ when one knows privately he has an altar to Baphomet in his bedroom and covers every female he meets _a_ _la_ LBJ, or an atheist voting for Obama or Hillary under the delusion each isn’t a sincere christian. It would be cruel to disillusion them if if costs one a vote. ( And after all, a lot rougher things than that have happened in the electoral process .) And in the end, it doesn’t matter how people arrived at their decision: what matters is that it is _their_ decision. Nor is is proven there is ‘Russian Stuff’; though after what the Clintons did to the Russian elections particularly giving them Yelsin — and worse, giving them Larry Summers — in the 1990s, it would seem poetic justice. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/45 "2017-05-14T15:49:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > How do you know they didn’t have success before? Because, if they had, the political parties would have cared about it and been seeking expert testimony on the matter. > [@](#): > > And for that matter, we don’t know if they had success this time. It’s not been proven that the Russians got Trump elected. One does not necessitate the other, nor did I say that they had success. It’s plausible that they had success, in whatever their aim was. All we know is what we can see, based on the December/January report that went to Obama and Trump and the expert testimony on the subject of Russian interference in the election before the Senate Intelligence Committee. In both cases, the implication is that the Russians made an attempt to interfere in the election that is seen on a similar level as something like assassinating congressmen. It is too direct a strike to allow as a component of adversarial engagement. You never kill the king in chess, because you are the king. Allowing that rule, in war, is silly. If you allow it, then every country would just be constantly assassinating the ruler of every other nation. Everything would be in constant disorder, because changes in government would occur too often and too sudden. This is the way that our generals were discussing the Russian attack. It’s a maneuver where, if it is allowed to everyone, then the Russians and everyone else are going to have to expect to get back in kind what they’re dishing out, and ain’t no one going to win that battle. The recommendation was not that we respond, it was that we engage with their leadership and agree not to do that any more, because it’s not an option that should be on the table. And, presumably, our generals feel like this is the sort of conversation we should be having based on their analysis of the numbers (not the numbers of people whose opinion was changed - that’s unknowable - but by the number who would have come into contact with the materials exposed or created by the Russians), and through the CIA’s experience during the Cold War of using such techniques to destabilize nations. As noted, the Republican party is taking the matter seriously. They would not be doing that if the Russian effort was a laughable effort or if they believed that there wasn’t a real risk to the party or the nation. While it is conceivable that they might not have been significantly aided by the Russians, certainly the Russians were on their side. If that effort was laughable, they’d just chuckle and accept the extra 2 votes. If it was not laughable, then even despite the aid, they’d be doing what we see them doing. > [@](#): > > For that matter, how do you know they aren’t still doing it? What if they didn’t give a rat’s ass about Trump, but were simply seeking to destabilize the U.S? Perhaps some of the anonymous leaks and strange goings-on are still part of a Russian disinformation campaign aimed at the current administration? I’m not sure what any of these questions matter to the topic at hand, other than as a hope to divert the topic? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/46 "2017-05-14T16:42:37Z")
Motivation is very important, **Sage**. If you gun down your neighbor because he was boinking your wife, that’s one thing. Quite another if you do it because he was an Episcopalian. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/47 "2017-05-14T16:45:08Z")
Some people just need killin’. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/48 "2017-05-14T18:57:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What are you referring to here? Electing Trump? That was what (basically) half the country wanted, and it’s what (basically) half the country would have wanted even if Russia had never even made a peep about the election. I agree with this. The election was so close, there’s no way to be sure how it would have turned out in the hypothetical universe where there was no foreign influence. And even if they were successful in fooling us, we were the ones who allowed ourselves to be fooled. We practically begged for it! So we can be mad at Russia for being Russia all we want, but the 2016 result is on us, the American people, and we’ll be the ones judged by history for whatever happens in consequence. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/49 "2017-05-14T19:06:44Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Some people just need killin’. I used to have enemies, but they got old. Serves 'em right! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/50 "2017-05-14T21:37:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Motivation is very important, **Sage**. If you gun down your neighbor because he was boinking your wife, that’s one thing. Quite another if you do it because he was an Episcopalian. Or something. If we’re all agreed that there was a gunning and that the gunning was either a successful murder or at least one of sufficient planning and execution that it’s splitting hairs to decline to call it a murder, then I’m happy to move on to further and more detailed discussion. But if we can’t agree on the basic facts, then I would prefer to focus on getting that cleared first. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/51 "2017-05-14T21:42:27Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > I agree with this. The election was so close, there’s no way to be sure how it would have turned out in the hypothetical universe where there was no foreign influence. This strikes of, “How did the water fit that pothole so well? I wonder how the pothole was so able to perfectly fit itself to the puddle.” You’re making an assertion that it would have been close either way and then using that as evidence that the Russian involvement was not effective. Why are you making such an assertion? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/52 "2017-05-15T00:00:53Z")
What numbers are we talking, kinda lost track. Last I paid attention, it was just short of 200,000 over the crucial five states. Is that the only scenario, then? Two hundred thousand votes spread over five states? Now, as I said, I think the primary effect of Russian interference was to exacerbate and aggravate the Bernie/Hillary division. I personally know otherwise intelligent and sensible people who swore they would go to Hell for Bernie, but wouldn’t vote for Hillary, period, full stop. I expect a bunch of them changed their minds, as the plot sickened. In five states, two hundred thousand Dems or lefty-indies who didn’t vote for HRC, even when the alternative was a shit sandwich, hold the mayo? I won’t say that happened, 'cause I don’t know and you know I don’t. Won’t even play it sneaky and demand you prove it didn’t, or I win. But possible? Fer sure. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/53 "2017-05-15T01:26:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You’re making an assertion that it would have been close either way and then using that as evidence that the Russian involvement was not effective. Why are you making such an assertion? No, I’m not. Where did you get that from my post? I don’t know if it was effective or not. I don’t know if it lost Clinton three points, or gained Trpum two points, or had zero net effect (unlikely). I’m saying that, whether the Russian activity had any influence or not, this election should not have been close enough for it to matter. The fact that it was is _our_ fault. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/54 "2017-05-15T14:16:16Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I don’t disagree with almost anything you wrote, but: > > 1. I have spent quite a bit of time on this board - not a known Republican hangout - and I can’t say that I have seen any real support for Hillary, calls for recounting or redoing the election, nor any statements to the effect that she should have been the President. There’s been a lot of conversation about not having foreign powers attacking our country, a lot of criticism about the choices that Trump has made as President and hand-wringing on that front, and wishes that we weren’t stuck with him. But on the whole, there has been complete acceptance that he is our president. All complaints about him are because he’s a crap President, not because people are longing for Hillary. All worries about Russia are because they made an attempt to pervert our democratic process, not because anyone much cares that Hillary Clinton got shafted. Your average liberal is probably not losing any sleep over the concept that Hillary Clinton didn’t get a fair deal in the election. Quite a number would, in any other year, probably be quite happy at that prospect. We obviously inhabit different parts of this board. Plenty of the Russia focus seems to be premised oh the notion that Russia’s involvement somehow invalidates (at least in a moral sense) Trump’s win. Every fucking time they bring up her slim popular vote margin, they are saying that Hillary was the 'real" winner but for the “technicalities” of how we have run our elections for 250 years. I voted for Hillary and people have been blaming me for Trump’s win because I wasn’t enthusiastic enough about her candidacy. Blaming the voters for Hillary’s loss is like blaming Simon Cowell because your sing like a donkey. Cenk Uygur captures much of my sentiment on the loss by Hillary. [http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cenk+uygur+hillary+clinton&view=detail&mid=DDD2EE0A57E07FB5C8C8DDD2EE0A57E07FB5C8C8&FORM=VIRE](http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cenk+uygur+hillary+clinton&view=detail&mid=DDD2EE0A57E07FB5C8C8DDD2EE0A57E07FB5C8C8&FORM=VIRE) Hillary lost. And the "ready for Hillary crowd is basically blaming other Left leaning voters for the loss. The other day I saw a “Ready for Warren” poster and I almost fucking choked. Why the FUCK would you associate your candidate with Hillary Clinton? > [@](#): > > 1. Bernie would have been better, but probably only to the same level as Jeremy Corbyn. He’d go off into a corner and sulk for not getting his way. He’s better as lead complainer for the left fringe than as a leader. Biden has dislocated his hip from kicking himself in the ass for not running in 2016. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/55 "2017-05-15T14:25:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Of course the Russians try to influence elections. They’ve been trying that since 1923, when the GPU (precursor to the KGB) created the directorate of disinformation. In the past, however, the primary vector in the west was through the left. IIRC Kruschev had a preference for Kennedy over Nixon because he thought Nixon was nucking futz and Kennedy would be more manipulable, and he admitted that he would do whatever he could to ensure a Nixon loss to Kennedy. No cite. Just a recollection. Anyone else remember this? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/56 "2017-05-15T15:20:40Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > How many threads have we had about this over the past six months? How many public hearings have been held? How is it possible that these are the only two things you’ve heard of Russia doing? Oh I’ve heard of Russian being _accused_ of doing many things but if we strip away the liberal hyperbole - what can we reasonably assume they did and more to the point of this thread (which many seem to have missed) how did all of that actually affect the election? So far the net result is that “fake news” may have had enough moderates stay home to throw swing states to Hillary although we are not sure how many stayed home and how many of those would have voted for Clinton/Trump/3rd Party. Another point was that Bernie Boyz may have stayed home rather than vote Clinton because of the email release. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/57 "2017-05-15T15:24:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > …So far the net result is that “fake news” may have had enough moderates stay home to throw swing states to Hillary… Uh, what? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/58 "2017-05-15T17:11:31Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Oh I’ve heard of Russian being _accused_ of doing many things but if we strip away the liberal hyperbole - what can we reasonably assume they did and more to the point of this thread (which many seem to have missed) how did all of that actually affect the election? How would one know what effect it had on the election and if it didn’t have an effect, or if it were impossible to prove one, does that mean it shouldn’t be investigated? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/59 "2017-05-15T19:09:20Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > How would one know what effect it had on the election and if it didn’t have an effect, or if it were impossible to prove one, does that mean it shouldn’t be investigated? You tell me. A lot of Clinton Supporters are yelling about the Russian interference and a slightly lesser amount crying about how it affected the election like it is an established fact that No Russian Influence\* = Clinton Victory \*Used generically as there are few specifics given as to what the influence was hence this thread. > [@elucidator](#): > > Uh, what? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s important to keep in mind that Trump won by ~80,000 votes, which was sufficient to give him the electoral college advantage. It’s reasonable to argue that the leaked emails (obtained through Russian hacking) and subsequent fallout was damaging enough for Clinton where people who would have cast a vote for her, if only as a protest vote against Trump, stayed home. Sorry it was the emails although I think Sage Rat may have implied the “Fake News” kept people home too. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417/60 "2017-05-15T19:15:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We obviously inhabit different parts of this board. Plenty of the Russia focus seems to be premised oh the notion that Russia’s involvement somehow invalidates (at least in a moral sense) Trump’s win. Maybe…that’s just how math works? But why don’t you scan back through this thread and count how many people mentioned either “Hillary” or “Clinton”, exclude your and my posts on this tangent, and then check what the percentage. Go into the other Comey threads (of which there are 6 or so) and do likewise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-russians-actually-influence-the-election/786417.md?page=4)