# How did the second amendement get so violated in the USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551 "2014-08-01T03:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/1 "2014-08-01T03:55:39Z")
Second amendment seems simple and straight forward, most court rulings(supreme or otherwise) usually agree with a straight reading of the constitution. So how did it get to the point that many of the large urban areas in the USA have blatantly second amendment violating laws? Banning handguns and such. How did it get this way, why was it ever accepted at all, why is it only recently there has been pushback? At the risk of poisoning the well, my personal opinion is that it is basically minority racism. The thought of black people openly carrying guns in urban areas is sufficiently scary that people just accepted this blatantly unconstitutional situation. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/2 "2014-08-01T04:06:09Z")
> [@grude](#): > > So how did it get to the point that many of the large urban areas in the USA have blatantly second amendment violating laws? Banning handguns and such. In the same way that a right to bear arms does not entitle you to own a functional nuclear weapon. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/3 "2014-08-01T04:10:31Z")
Perhaps we can blame the small-dicked zealots who think they have a “right” to any kind of weapon imaginable, in any quantity. We have a constitutional right to “bear arms,” not to walk down city streets with a private arsenal. And you wouldn’t think background checks would be debatable. And how long will this thread stay in IMHO? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/4 "2014-08-01T04:12:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In the same way that a right to bear arms does not entitle you to own a functional nuclear weapon. Is there any state or part of the USA where that has ever been legal? But clearly there are parts of the USA where owning firearms is legal, and parts where it isn’t. I guess an analogy would be if major cities banned free speech saying that the varied population was more prone to riots, but free speech is fine and dandy in Utah, I don’t think that would be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/5 "2014-08-01T04:16:12Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Perhaps we can blame the small-dicked zealots who think they have a “right” to any kind of weapon imaginable, in any quantity. We have a constitutional right to “bear arms,” not to walk down city streets with a private arsenal. Huh? What is the difference between “arms” and “arsenal”? “Arms” is plural, so - at least two, right? How do you define “arsenal”? You know what - I would be fine with a law that said that you are not allowed to “bear” more than two “arms” at a time. Leave the rest at home. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/6 "2014-08-01T04:24:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In the same way that a right to bear arms does not entitle you to own a functional nuclear weapon. Not to nitpick, but “the right of the people to keep and bear arms **shall not be infringed** ” says “shall not be infringed,” period. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/7 "2014-08-01T04:27:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You know what - I would be fine with a law that said that you are not allowed to “bear” more than two “arms” at a time. Leave the rest at home. Gun control advocates would probably point out that two weapons is plenty enough for someone to carry out mayhem on the level of Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/8 "2014-08-01T04:31:25Z")
Talk of nuclear weapons is always a frivolous and pointless sidetrack in these discussions. At no point in American jurisprudence has the “arms” of the second amendment been interpreted to mean anything more than small arms such as a single common soldier in a contemporary military force would be expected to bear. That said, I would hardly describe the second amendment as “so violated.” There are some localities with restrictions that are probably (or have already been found to be) unconstitutional, but by and large the nation’s policies with regard to personal ownership of firearms are pretty liberal. If I had my druthers there are a few things I’d deregulate a bit more (remove all restrictions on silencers, for example). But I’m far more worried about the first, fourth, and fifth amendments, which seem to be constantly under threat of erosion on a breathtaking scale at the national level. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/9 "2014-08-01T04:31:54Z")
and the “well regulated Militia” part? I believe the second amendment states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Howsabout using the entire quote instead of cherry picking, m’kay? And if you prefer an alternative version with a different comma, I’m fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/10 "2014-08-01T04:33:00Z")
> [@grude](#): > > But clearly there are parts of the USA where owning firearms is legal, and parts where it isn’t. In what part of the USA is it illegal to own a firearm? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/11 "2014-08-01T04:59:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In what part of the USA is it illegal to own a firearm? > **[Gun laws in New York](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Laws_in_New_York_City#New_York_City)** > > Gun laws in New York regulate the sale, possession, and use of firearms and ammunition in the U.S. state of New York, outside of New York City which has separate licensing regulations. New York's gun laws are among the most restrictive in the United States. > New York Civil Rights Law art. II, § 4 provides that "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms cannot be infringed." Similar text is also contained in the Secon... > **[Gun laws in the District of Columbia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_District_of_Columbia)** > > Gun laws in the District of Columbia regulate the sale, possession, and use of firearms and ammunition in Washington, D.C. > > A license to carry a handgun is required to legally carry a concealed handgun in the District of Columbia. Licenses are issued to qualified applicants on a "shall issue" basis by the Metropolitan Police Department. Licenses are granted to residents and non-residents. Concealed carry licenses issued by other jurisdictions are not valid in D.C. A license to carry is... > [@](#): > > In Washington, D.C., all firearms must be registered with the police, by the terms of the Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975. > > The same law also prohibited the possession of handguns, even in private citizens’ own homes, unless they were registered before 1976. However, the handgun ban was struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 2008 case District of Columbia v. Heller. The Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment acknowledges and guarantees the right of the individual to possess and carry firearms, and therefore D.C.'s ban on handguns was unconstitutional.[6] > > Following the Heller decision, the Washington, D.C. City Council enacted a set of rules regulating the possession of handguns and long guns in citizens’ homes. Additional changes were made to the DC laws in 2012 under threat of lawsuits from gun owners and prospective gun owners.[7] > > In addition to each firearm being registered with the police, the rules require that D.C. residents undergo a NCIC background check and submit to fingerprinting. The firearms registry photographs the applicant. Residents must take an online gun safety course, and pass a written test on the District’s gun laws. Residents must also declare at what address it will be kept. There is a 10-day waiting period from purchase of firearm to possession, and a 30-day period between purchases of successive handguns. Each firearm is registered to an individual only, meaning couples who wish to own firearms must purchase two separate firearms. Handgun registrants must be 21. Long gun registration is allowed for persons 18–21 years of age with a NCIC qualified adult co-registering. Handgun models are limited to any handgun appearing on any one of the California, Massachusetts, Maryland or DC Police “approved rosters” by make/model. Long guns are controlled by an allowed/not-allowed attributes list. Non residents, with a place of business in DC may register a firearm to be maintained at that place of business.[8][9][10] > > Handgun and long gun ownership/possession licenses must be resubmitted and reapproved every three years before expiration for each firearm owned. Please note I started this thread in IMHO to avoid rules lawyering about recent rulings. I’m more interested in WHY this was tolerated for so so long a time. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/12 "2014-08-01T05:08:20Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I’m more interested in WHY this was tolerated for so so long a time. It was done slowly and gradually, so society accepts it. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/13 "2014-08-01T05:08:33Z")
> [@grude](#): > > [Gun laws in New York - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Laws_in_New_York_City#New_York_City) > > [Gun laws in the District of Columbia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_District_of_Columbia) > > Please note I started this thread in IMHO to avoid rules lawyering about recent rulings. I’m more interested in WHY this was tolerated for so so long a time. So, from your cite, I see that…in D.C., people are allowed to own firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/14 "2014-08-01T05:13:41Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Second amendment seems simple and straight forward, most court rulings(supreme or otherwise) usually agree with a straight reading of the constitution. > > So how did it get to the point that many of the large urban areas in the USA have blatantly second amendment violating laws? Banning handguns and such. > > How did it get this way, why was it ever accepted at all, why is it only recently there has been pushback? > > At the risk of poisoning the well, my personal opinion is that it is basically minority racism. The thought of black people openly carrying guns in urban areas is sufficiently scary that people just accepted this blatantly unconstitutional situation. Maybe people just don’t like getting shot to death by idiots, maniacs and drunks with guns. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/15 "2014-08-01T05:19:39Z")
> [@grude](#): > > [Gun laws in New York - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Laws_in_New_York_City#New_York_City) > > [Gun laws in the District of Columbia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_District_of_Columbia) > > Please note I started this thread in IMHO to avoid rules lawyering about recent rulings. I’m more interested in WHY this was tolerated for so so long a time. Per your own cite, it _wasn’t_ tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/16 "2014-08-01T06:52:03Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > and the “well regulated Militia” part? > > I believe the second amendment states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. > > Howsabout using the entire quote instead of cherry picking, m’kay? “Well regulated,” as commonly used and widely understood in the eighteenth century, meant in good working order, functioning properly. A well regulated watch kept good time. Since the phrase has fallen out of everyday use, many have misinterpreted it to mean something along the lines of “carefully controlled.” A well regulated militia is not one that’s bound by rules and regulations, it’s one that is capable and effective. Similarly, “militia” was understood to include civilians ready to take up arms should it be called for. It did not mean National Guard units and the like (nor did it mean nutcase self-styled paramilitary groups). Every able-bodied citizen is a potential militia member. That said, Supreme Court rulings over the years have accepted that some limitations on bearing arms are reasonable, just as some restrictions on free speech are reasonable. There’s has been a longstanding and ongoing tug of war as to just which limitations are reasonable/constitutional and which aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/17 "2014-08-01T07:06:37Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Second amendment seems simple and straight forward, most court rulings(supreme or otherwise) usually agree with a straight reading of the constitution. > > So how did it get to the point that many of the large urban areas in the USA have blatantly second amendment violating laws? Banning handguns and such. > > How did it get this way, why was it ever accepted at all, why is it only recently there has been pushback? A fair number of people have felt that some degree of gun control was a measure for the public good, and acceptable under the constitution, just as certain limits on free speech were acceptable. As with many issues, the pendulum swings, and the current Supreme Court has seen fit to swing it toward less restrictions. > [@](#): > > At the risk of poisoning the well, my personal opinion is that it is basically minority racism. The thought of black people openly carrying guns in urban areas is sufficiently scary that people just accepted this blatantly unconstitutional situation. In New York City, minority racism seems to have been a factor a century ago, but not towards blacks – Italians were the bogeyman of the day. Check out the [Sullivan Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_Act), particularly the “Controversy” section. ---
**Author:** ![Fishtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed655f/32.png) [@Fishtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fishtar)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/18 "2014-08-01T07:42:59Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Second amendment seems simple and straight forward, most court rulings(supreme or otherwise) usually agree with a straight reading of the constitution. > > So how did it get to the point that many of the large urban areas in the USA have blatantly second amendment violating laws? Banning handguns and such. > > . Straight forward? I have no idea what the the second amendment means. Neither does the Supreme Court. What is an arm? What is a militia? The language is not clear. In the 1700s all there were just muskets and cannons. In the 1800s more interesting guns appeared. But not everyone was allowed to own them. Black people, natives, women… In the 1900s firearms technology advanced, and along came regulations. The big one was The National Firearms Act of 1934. Congress came very close to banning all pistols along with the machine guns, sawed-off shotguns, and suppressers. (And IMHO they should have. Handguns account for 80% of our 25,000 annual murders, and are useless in a Revolution. Too late now though…) > **[National Firearms Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act)** > > The National Firearms Act (NFA), 73rd Congress, Sess. 2, ch. 757, 48 Stat. 1236 was enacted on June 26, 1934, and currently codified and amended as I.R.C. ch. 53. The law is an Act of Congress in the United States that, in general, imposes an excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of certain firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms. The NFA is also referred to as Title II of the federal firearms laws, with the Gun Control Act of 1968 ("GCA") as Title I. > All transfers of owner... In the second half of the century, the tone regarding the second amendment was set Chief Justice Burger. A Republican appointed by Eisenhower. He thought the ‘militia’ part was significant, and was not so sure individuals had any right. He is the main reason New York and DCs bans were…tolerated. [Ex-Chief Justice Warren Burger in Parade Magazine](http://www.guncite.com/burger.html) > **[So You Think You Know the Second Amendment?](https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/so-you-think-you-know-the-second-amendment)** > > Does the Second Amendment prevent Congress from passing gun-control legislation? The question is rooted in politics as much as law. In any case, gun laws are now more liberal than they have ever been. So quit bitching. . ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/19 "2014-08-01T08:21:21Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > “Well regulated,” as commonly used and widely understood in the eighteenth century, meant in good working order, functioning properly. A well regulated watch kept good time. Since the phrase has fallen out of everyday use, many have misinterpreted it to mean something along the lines of “carefully controlled.” A well regulated militia is not one that’s bound by rules and regulations, it’s one that is capable and effective. If that was the accepted meaning at the time then your watch example is a rather poor one. A watch which keeps good time is one in which its action is very carefully controlled, that being the essential requirement for accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/20 "2014-08-01T10:09:57Z")
The entire Bill of Rights has never been found to bind the states. It’s been done piecemeal as cases come up. The Second Amendment was found to bind the states in 2010. That’s late compared to the other most-quoted parts (although I think many people might be surprised to learn that the Supreme Court was okay with double jeopardy in state courts [as late as 1937](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palko_v._Connecticut), and did not overturn that decision until 1969), but there are still parts that states don’t have to follow. Quite a few states have no grand juries, for example. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551.md?page=2)