# How did the second amendement get so violated in the USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551 "2014-08-01T03:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/21 "2014-08-01T11:32:23Z")
How is it that most reasonable people can agree that 18th century sensibilities don’t necessarily apply well to 21st century society? Most people accept that slavery is bad, voting rights for all are good, child labour bad, etc… But dare suggest that prolific and relatively easy access to guns among citizens is a bad 18th century idea and you’ve got people screaming “but my rights!” ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/22 "2014-08-01T11:53:41Z")
> [@grude](#): > > [Gun laws in New York - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Laws_in_New_York_City#New_York_City) > > [Gun laws in the District of Columbia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_District_of_Columbia) > > Please note I started this thread in IMHO to avoid rules lawyering about recent rulings. I’m more interested in WHY this was tolerated for so so long a time. So people who disagree with your premise can’t say so? It doesn’t work like that, regardless of forum. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/23 "2014-08-01T12:32:44Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Perhaps we can blame the small-dicked zealots who think they have a “right” to any kind of weapon imaginable, in any quantity. We have a constitutional right to “bear arms,” not to walk down city streets with a private arsenal. And you wouldn’t think background checks would be debatable. > > And how long will this thread stay in IMHO? Post #3 and suddenly dicks. This level of discourse is why gun politics threads at this board are seldom worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/24 "2014-08-01T12:38:20Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > “Well regulated,” as commonly used and widely understood in the eighteenth century, meant in good working order, functioning properly. A well regulated watch kept good time. Since the phrase has fallen out of everyday use, many have misinterpreted it to mean something along the lines of “carefully controlled.” A well regulated militia is not one that’s bound by rules and regulations, it’s one that is capable and effective. > > Similarly, “militia” was understood to include civilians ready to take up arms should it be called for. It did not mean National Guard units and the like (nor did it mean nutcase self-styled paramilitary groups). Every able-bodied citizen is a potential militia member. > > That said, Supreme Court rulings over the years have accepted that some limitations on bearing arms are reasonable, just as some restrictions on free speech are reasonable. There’s has been a longstanding and ongoing tug of war as to just which limitations are reasonable/constitutional and which aren’t. I don’t buy that definition of well regulated. It is one of those things that becomes a truism by repetition. Somebody made it up, it sounds good to some people, and by repetition it became “true”. Likewise the notion that every male is a member of the militia is pure fanciful thinking. Nowadays our militia is the National Guard. A proper reading of the 2nd is that the National Guard can’t be disarmed. Your “right” to buy assault weapons, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/25 "2014-08-01T12:45:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t buy that definition of well regulated. It is one of those things that becomes a truism by repetition. Somebody made it up, it sounds good to some people, and by repetition it became “true”. Other than really, really, really not wanting it to be true, why do you not believe the meaning has changed? Have you read 18th century documents where the phrase was used to indicate “bound by rules and laws?” Can you point us to those documents? Meaning does shift over time, you know, however inconvenient you find this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/26 "2014-08-01T12:45:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Likewise the notion that every male is a member of the militia is pure fanciful thinking. I think it’s silly in 2014, but federal law explicitly says that the militia of the United States is every male citizen between the ages of 17 and 45 (and women in the National Guard). (If anybody knows how, and I know it’s almost certainly not possible, I’d like to know where I can submit my resignation.) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/27 "2014-08-01T13:06:16Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Other than really, really, really not wanting it to be true, why do you not believe the meaning has changed? Have you read 18th century documents where the phrase was used to indicate “bound by rules and laws?” Can you point us to those documents? Meaning does shift over time, you know, however inconvenient you find this instance. Can you point to language scholars that support your interpretation? This bit about it meaning in good working order has about as much credibility as the old balls off a brass monkey origin fable. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/28 "2014-08-01T13:06:32Z")
One of the reasons was the US moving from almost all rural to almost all urban. Guns were and are part of the background in the country, but as people moved closer together, what formerly was taken for granted started being legislated away in the interests of public safety and urban control. Apart from that, how refreshing to see yet another debate between the Fascist Gun Grabbers and the Penis Compensating Neanderthals. I’m sure this one will resolve the issues at last. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/29 "2014-08-01T13:34:35Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Second amendment seems simple and straight forward, Yup, sure does.\*\*\* “Well-regulated”\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/30 "2014-08-01T13:43:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One of the reasons was the US moving from almost all rural to almost all urban. Guns were and are part of the background in the country, but as people moved closer together, what formerly was taken for granted started being legislated away in the interests of public safety and urban control. > > Apart from that, how refreshing to see yet another debate between the Fascist Gun Grabbers and the Penis Compensating Neanderthals. I’m sure this one will resolve the issues at last. > > Regards, > Shodan Gotta give it to **Shodan**. On both counts here. Urbanization had indeed a lot to do with it IMO. “Check your guns at the door” was already around in Old West times. As to the “how come it happened”, **Lord Feldon** points to the basic legal component: the notion that the Bill of Rights is and has always been ex-proprio-vigore absolutely extensive to all cases everywhere is something of a pious patriotic myth. For most of the nation’s history it was presumed that states had wide gun control faculties within their general police power. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/31 "2014-08-01T13:53:40Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The entire Bill of Rights has never been found to bind the states. It’s been done piecemeal as cases come up. The Second Amendment was found to bind the states in 2010. That’s late compared to the other most-quoted parts (although I think many people might be surprised to learn that the Supreme Court was okay with double jeopardy in state courts [as late as 1937](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palko_v._Connecticut), and did not overturn that decision until 1969), but there are still parts that states don’t have to follow. Quite a few states have no grand juries, for example. Everyone, please read this. I’m surprised this thread got so far without anyone bringing up [Incorporation of the Bill of Rights.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights) Some states even had Established Religions in the early days of the Republic. The BoR was originally a constraint only on the Federal Government. For example, note that the phrase: Congress shall make no law. Congress. Not the states. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/32 "2014-08-01T14:11:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Can you point to language scholars that support your interpretation? This bit about it meaning in good working order has about as much credibility as the old balls off a brass monkey origin fable. So, no. You don’t have anything but wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/33 "2014-08-01T14:21:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One of the reasons was the US moving from almost all rural to almost all urban. Guns were and are part of the background in the country, but as people moved closer together, what formerly was taken for granted started being legislated away in the interests of public safety and urban control. > > Apart from that, how refreshing to see yet another debate between the Fascist Gun Grabbers and the Penis Compensating Neanderthals. I’m sure this one will resolve the issues at last. > > Regards, > Shodan No no no . . . we’re the Gun Grabbing Fascists! Either way, Romans go home! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/34 "2014-08-01T14:24:53Z")
[http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm](http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm) [http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/regulate.html](http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/regulate.html) FYI. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/35 "2014-08-01T14:26:54Z")
Romanes eunt domus ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/36 "2014-08-01T14:50:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t buy that definition of well regulated. It is one of those things that becomes a truism by repetition. Somebody made it up, it sounds good to some people, and by repetition it became “true”. For what it is worth, here is what the OED has to say regarding the definition of “regulated”: > [@OED](#): > > 1. Properly controlled, governed, or directed; subject to guidance or regulations. Also: adjusted in response to, or in order to conform to, a principle, standard, set of circumstances, etc. > > 2. Of troops, an army, etc.: properly organized; formally constituted into a professional body. Also fig. and in figurative contexts. Obs. Cf. regular adj. 7. Note that the second definition is considered obsolete. However, the OED provides quotations using the second definition during the years 1650-1816 which includes the era during which the second amendment was drafted. Regarding the “Cf. regular adj. 7” we have the following definition of “regular”: > [@OED](#): > > 1. Chiefly Mil. Of troops or other forces: properly and permanently organized; constituting a permanent professional body. Also: of or relating to such a force. Also fig. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/37 "2014-08-01T15:21:16Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Second amendment seems simple and straight forward, most court rulings(supreme or otherwise) usually agree with a straight reading of the constitution. > > So how did it get to the point that many of the large urban areas in the USA have blatantly second amendment violating laws? Banning handguns and such. > > How did it get this way, why was it ever accepted at all, why is it only recently there has been pushback? Because, stereotypes notwithstanding, many Americans, including some of the politicians and judges, are actually quite sensible and intelligent people. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/38 "2014-08-01T15:23:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Everyone, please read this. I’m surprised this thread got so far without anyone bringing up [Incorporation of the Bill of Rights.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights) > > Some states even had Established Religions in the early days of the Republic. The BoR was originally a constraint only on the Federal Government. For example, note that the phrase: Congress shall make no law. Congress. Not the states. Just to flesh this out a bit, here’s something I posted back in 2002: > [@me](#): > > Let’s put our history in perspective. _Presser v. Illinois_, the first case cited in footnote 2, was decided 18 years after the fourteenth amendment was passed, at a time when **no** rights from the Bill of Rights had yet been held to apply to the states. And the _Presser_ decision rested wholly upon the decision as given in _U.S. v. Cruikshank_, which was decided a mere **8 years** after the passing of the 14th! Successful incorporation of rights from the Bill of Rights through the 14th didn’t really begin until early in the 20th century. Incorporation of rights was first seriously contemplated _Gitlow v. New York_ in 1925 and didn’t really happen until _Adamson v. California_ in 1947. Hell, most of the action involving incorporation of rights didn’t happen until the 1960s! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/39 "2014-08-01T15:39:02Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Please note I started this thread in IMHO to avoid rules lawyering about recent rulings. I’m more interested in WHY this was tolerated for so so long a time. Because a lot of people look at all the gun violence in places like NYC and DC and want to do something to reduce it. Some people thought banning personal possession of handguns would help, and the cost to individuals would not be so great. Getting shot is a big problem. Not being able to own a gun in NYC, not so big a problem. Of course, like bans of drugs, alcohol and porn, banning gun ownership didn’t actually seem to work that well in reducing gun violence. It’s frustrating, however, to have a problem without a solution. (Or, to be more precise, a solution that is complicated, multifaceted, and difficult.) ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551/40 "2014-08-01T16:06:25Z")
> [@Fishtar](#): > > Straight forward? I have no idea what the the second amendment means. Neither does the Supreme Court. What is an arm? What is a militia? The language is not clear. > > In the 1700s all there were just muskets and cannons. > > In the 1800s more interesting guns appeared. But not everyone was allowed to own them. Black people, natives, women… > > In the 1900s firearms technology advanced, and along came regulations. The big one was The National Firearms Act of 1934. Congress came very close to banning all pistols along with the machine guns, sawed-off shotguns, and suppressers. (And IMHO they should have. Handguns account for 80% of our 25,000 annual murders, and are useless in a Revolution. Too late now though…) > > [National Firearms Act - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act) > > In the second half of the century, the tone regarding the second amendment was set Chief Justice Burger. A Republican appointed by Eisenhower. He thought the ‘militia’ part was significant, and was not so sure individuals had any right. He is the main reason New York and DCs bans were…tolerated. > > [Ex-Chief Justice Warren Burger in Parade Magazine](http://www.guncite.com/burger.html) > > [So You Think You Know the Second Amendment? | The New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/so-you-think-you-know-the-second-amendment) > > In any case, gun laws are now more liberal than they have ever been. So quit bitching. **grude** , I think this is the best answer you’re going to get in this forum, and in GD it would probably just be more people talking past each other. I also think [Wikipedia’s history of US gun control](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States#History) is excellent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-second-amendement-get-so-violated-in-the-usa/694551.md?page=3)