# How did the universe and consciousness create themselves from nothing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286 "2019-02-10T17:41:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/21 "2019-02-10T19:46:57Z")
How would you know if they didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/22 "2019-02-10T20:00:44Z")
Sneezed by the Great Green Arkleseizure, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/23 "2019-02-10T20:02:26Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s time to retire this question as the OP phrases it. The latest scientific understanding is that nothingness is impossible. Quantum uncertainty means that every cubic inch of space is a constant froth of virtual particles which on rare occasion can become “real.” That makes for a base of virtual energy that can produce matter without violating any conservation laws. > > Gotcha questions don’t work until you have a sufficiently firm understanding of the subject not to be embarrassed by instant demolition of your false beliefs. Yes but “space” that has virtual particles is a _framework_. It’s _not nothing_. Why would it ever exist? This is one of the true impossibilities about existence. From the way we see the universe, there’s a _framework_ of space out there. But how can it ever exist? There should be nothing. No universe, no space, nothing at all. Because in order for there to be \*something \*there had to be something \*first \*to create that _something_. Which is impossible. Basically in true emptiness - nothing at all, no space, no time, no matter, no energy - nothing can ever exist. And if something exists to allow all the rest of the things to exist, how did _it_ get created. And no, incoherent tribal beliefs from thousands of years ago don’t explain jack towards this problem. Bringing in complex deities who care about your sex life in no way simplifies the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/24 "2019-02-10T20:18:06Z")
> [@scarface54345](#): > > Just post your theories down below, and I’ll get back to you ASAP Your question is far too presumptuous and speculative. Before you get to a “how” you have to establish whether a thing has actually occurred. I can certainly ask you “how did I manage to score seven successive 9-dart 501 finishes?” but you will quite rightly ask me to first show that I did indeed do that. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/25 "2019-02-10T20:20:43Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Your question is far too presumptuous and speculative. > Before you get to a “how” you have to establish whether a thing has actually occurred. Well we definitely have a “something” now. And from our understanding of things, something can’t come from nothing. And we have something but there couldn’t have always been this _specific_ something, that doesn’t make any sense. How does a cosmos where there always is space-time come to exist? I mean I sorta get your point but the fact you can read the message I wrote proves the event of creation did somehow occur. ---
**Author:** ![GinoC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f4b2a3/32.png) [@GinoC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GinoC)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/26 "2019-02-10T20:25:22Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > God created heaven and earth Well, I guess that tells us everything we need to know. We can just close up all research into cosmology now that we have the real answer. Orrr, you could explain how this hypothetical entity did this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/27 "2019-02-10T20:38:05Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > God created heaven and earth …but the devil is in the details. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/28 "2019-02-10T21:07:46Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Well we definitely have a “something” now. And from our understanding of things, something can’t come from nothing. And we have something but there couldn’t have always been this _specific_ something, that doesn’t make any sense. How does a cosmos where there always is space-time come to exist? > > I mean I sorta get your point but the fact you can read the message I wrote proves the event of creation did somehow occur. Why? Why could it not have always existed? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/29 "2019-02-10T21:10:01Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Why? Why could it not have always existed? Why do so many people have no problem with time going off forever in one direction, but not the opposite direction? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/30 "2019-02-10T21:12:19Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Why? Why could it not have always existed? Well this does seem to be the case but it still begs how this could be. We imagine the default state of existence to be nothing. Instead it’s almost like the default state of existence is “everything”. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/31 "2019-02-10T21:17:26Z")
I do not imagine nothing to be the default state of existence, because nothing is non-existence. I mostly do not imagine nothing, except that I know that “_Nothing is Greater than God_”, so, I believe in the greater thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/32 "2019-02-10T21:20:14Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > We imagine the default state of existence to be nothing. I’m pretty sure I do the opposite of that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/33 "2019-02-10T23:15:46Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Well we definitely have a “something” now. And from our understanding of things, something can’t come from nothing. And we have something but there couldn’t have always been this _specific_ something, that doesn’t make any sense. How does a cosmos where there always is space-time come to exist? > > I mean I sorta get your point but the fact you can read the message I wrote proves the event of creation did somehow occur. Well, no. That is not our understanding. We have no idea whether something can or can not truly come from nothing. It may even be a question that makes no sense as the laws of the universe as we know it may break down at the point of singularity. This line of reasoning (having a point of caused creation) is one that the religious are fond of peddling but it is of no use at all as an answer. If a cause is needed for everything then something caused creation but by the rules of that argument that creator must also have been created. It sets up an infinite regress which can only be solved with resort to special pleading. Fine, but note that having a simple proto-universe that came from nothing or has always existed is a far simpler solution than a guiding, complex intelligence which came from nothing or has always existed. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/34 "2019-02-10T23:30:36Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Well, no. That is not our understanding. We have no idea whether something can or can not truly come from nothing. It may even be a question that makes no sense as the laws of the universe as we know it may break down at the point of singularity. > > Fine, but note that having a simple proto-universe that came from nothing or has always existed is a far simpler solution than a guiding, complex intelligence which came from nothing or has always existed. I addressed this above and agree with you. It’s just the concept of, well, if the physical laws “outside” what we can see really allow something to come from nothing it still is a bit nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/35 "2019-02-10T23:54:14Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > God created heaven and earth Which God? Rama? Odin? Zeus? The Invisible Pink Unicorn? Sure as hell wasn’t the typical western god, because that creation story is totally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/36 "2019-02-11T00:05:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why do so many people have no problem with time going off forever in one direction, but not the opposite direction? Assuming its even linear from any perspective but ours. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/37 "2019-02-11T00:07:39Z")
> [@scarface54345](#): > > So what’s in between atoms then if there is no such thing as nothing? The froth of virtual particles is sub-atomic. There is no space it is not in. > [@SamuelA](#): > > Yes but “space” that has virtual particles is a _framework_. It’s _not nothing_. Why would it ever exist? > > This is one of the true impossibilities about existence. From the way we see the universe, there’s a _framework_ of space out there. But how can it ever exist? > > There should be nothing. No universe, no space, nothing at all. Because in order for there to be \*something \*there had to be something \*first \*to create that _something_. Which is impossible. This is what scientists are now saying is completely wrong. Earlier visions of the world always included a “nothing” and then declared than something could not emerge from nothing. But “nothing” appears to be impossible, a ill-defined concept that has no physical reality. There is always “something” and therefore no paradoxes about something emerging from it can occur. If your assumptions are wrong then no solid foundations can be built on them. Stop assuming “nothing” exists and then everything changes. Bottom line: throw “nothing” out of your vocabulary. It’s the use of “nothing” that’s nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/38 "2019-02-11T00:11:13Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > God created heaven and earth “I have no need for that hypothesis.” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/39 "2019-02-11T00:44:32Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > God created heaven and earth _This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move._ ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286/40 "2019-02-11T02:03:33Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s time to retire this question as the OP phrases it. The latest scientific understanding is that nothingness is impossible. Quantum uncertainty means that every cubic inch of space is a constant froth of virtual particles which on rare occasion can become “real.” That makes for a base of virtual energy that can produce matter without violating any conservation laws. I would argue that this has to be qualified with some context. “Nothingness” is impossible under the physical laws of the universe as we understand them because quantum uncertainty leads to the hypothesis of random quantum fluctuations in the vacuum. But this is clearly a specific property of space itself, which also exhibits other properties like time and the relativistic effects of spatial separation, and space and its physical laws only began to come into being at the Big Bang. The virtual-particle idea is only an analogy to the BB singularity, which in our terms of reference really did arise from nothing. Alternatively, under Stephen Hawking’s no-boundary proposal (the Hartle-Hawking model), the BB did not “arise” at all, but is a steady state in “imaginary time”. Either one leads to the same philosophical quandary that is outside the realm of the known physical laws of the universe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-universe-and-consciousness-create-themselves-from-nothing/829286.md?page=3)