# How did the USS Newport News manage to hit a TANKER? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289 "2007-01-09T14:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/21 "2007-01-09T18:47:33Z")
I don’t know anything about submarines, tankers or Hormuz but the first thought that crossed my mind when I read the news was the cable car in Italy hit by a hot-dogging jet (Prowler?). I hope it was nothing of the sort (not that we will ever know if that was the case) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/22 "2007-01-09T18:50:53Z")
Thanks for helping fight my ignorance. 🙂 In a crowded area like Hormuz, would it be prudent to ping the active sonar before ascending? Or is that generally not done, for security or other reasons? Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/23 "2007-01-09T18:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] I don’t know anything about submarines, tankers or Hormuz but the first thought that crossed my mind when I read the news was the cable car in Italy hit by a hot-dogging jet (Prowler?). I hope it was nothing of the sort (not that we will ever know if that was the case) [/QUOTE] I’m not sure, but I don’t think you can _ **Hotdog** _ in a submarine. Perhaps one could think they are above the rest and not give right of way, but I doubt hotdogg’in was involved. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/24 "2007-01-09T18:55:16Z")
[QUOTE=Random] **robby** , I have certainly heard of the practice that you mention – that the captain in such a situation loses his career. And that makes sense if he was somehow to blame, or if he was actively commanding the ship (in this case, the boat) when the collision took place (even if the actual fault was the OOD, or the lookout, or someone else). But what_s the rationale if he is off duty, asleep in his bunk? Let_s say that the collision came out of the blue, when no especially hazardous maneovers are going on, so his decision to be off of the bridge is not in itself blameworthy. Is the career-over rule absolute? [/QUOTE] There are no absolute rules. The decision will be made by the CO’s superiors after reviewing the evidence. The rhetoric used to announce this is that the relevant superior has “lost confidence in his ability to command.” The rationale for firing the CO even if he is not present in the control room is simple–the CO is responsible for the entire ship, at all times. He is NEVER “off duty,” even asleep in his rack. More concretely, the CO is also responsible for the training and performance of all personnel under his command. If his OOD was incapable of properly carrying out his duties, then the CO should have taken steps to rectify this or gotten rid of him. Command at sea carries great authority, and great responsibility as well. There’s simply no excusing your way out of something like this. P.S. While subs are still generally referred to as “boats” by Navy personnel, subs are now _officially_ referred to as “ships” by the Navy. This is not inappropriate, as today’s subs are anywhere from 4-12 times larger than the old WWII diesel subs. This has filtered down such that it is not uncommon for a sub to be referred to today as a “ship.” ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/25 "2007-01-09T19:14:21Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Thanks for the info, **robby**. Could you clarify a little bit regarding what a sub can “see”, and how it would go through an area like Straits of Hormuz? When the sub is submerged - before it ascended to periscope depth, couldn’t it expect to see a sonar image of something as large as a tanker in its general vicinity? I guess I’m thinking about air traffic radar, where the screen displays the altitude and speed of every aircraft within range. What is the sonar display like for a sub? Can they see all the different traffic in an area? How large of an area, and how much definition? And what is the practice for going through a “narrow” area such as SoH? Do they surface before going through? Is it deep/wide enough to go thru submerged - under any other boats/ships without surfacing? How deep does a body of water need to be for a sub to feel it is safely under any surface craft? Is there a marine equivalent of air traffic control, or can anyone just motor on through? I understand you might not be able to go into too much detail, but I’d appreciate anything you could give me on this type of thing. [/QUOTE] First off, the reports to date have not said that the collision took place _in_ the Strait of Hormuz, only that it took place “near the busy shipping lanes of the Straits of Hormuz.” [This link](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/asw_sys/asw_sys.htm) gives some pretty good info on sonar types and how they are displayed (though in terms of the ASW context). Look about halfway down to the section entitled “Passive Sonar Systems.” ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/26 "2007-01-09T19:36:22Z")
**robby** whilst not for one minute disputing what you say It still seems a very harsh decision to relieve the captain of his command if he, at the time of the accident, was asleep. Surely he cannot be expected to be _completely_ aware of everything that’s going on 24/7 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/27 "2007-01-09T19:58:34Z")
Whether or not you consider the ramifications fair, I think it refreshing that this is one of the few instances left in which the individual in charge is responsible for what transpires under his command. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/28 "2007-01-09T20:14:13Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] **robby** whilst not for one minute disputing what you say It still seems a very harsh decision to relieve the captain of his command if he, at the time of the accident, was asleep. Surely he cannot be expected to be _completely_ aware of everything that’s going on 24/7 [/QUOTE] My CO had a written set of “standing orders” for the OODs that specified all of the things we were required to wake him up for. They included things like: –detection of any contact within 4,000 yards; –detection of any submerged contact; –permission to go to PD (preceded by a recitation of own ship’s depth and heading, and positions of all contacts); as well as numerous other things. Sometimes we would wake him up six times a night. Yes, the CO is responsible 24/7, and that’s what is expected of him. If a person can’t handle this, they don’t get command. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/29 "2007-01-09T20:18:41Z")
I used to work with a former submariner. He had several interesting stories. One regarded his boat running aground on an undersea mountain, and nearly sinking. I mention this, because while this incident WAS a career ender for the CO, this was not the case the FIRST TIME that same CO ran his boat aground. Less serious than running into a civie ship and killing people to be sure, but apparently in some cases, end of career is not a foregone conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/30 "2007-01-09T20:20:13Z")
Another possibilty is that the sub was submerged, following along behind the tanker. This is sort of using the tanker’s “noise” to mask the submarines movements in and out of waters that may be classified as a “combat zone” (or whatever the actual term you bubble heads use). However, subs do not stop, or turn on a dime, anymore than any other ship of their size. If they were masking themselves in the prop noise of this Japanese tanker, and it had to suddenly stop, the crew of the sub may not have known in time that they were closing on the stern of the tanker. They _should_ know, they are trained for this type of stuff, but as mentioned above, sound bends funny in seawater. But I suspect that whoever was “at the conn” is gonna lose his dolphins, and quitely asked if he wants out of the service. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/31 "2007-01-09T21:27:51Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] Another possibilty is that the sub was submerged, following along behind the tanker. This is sort of using the tanker’s “noise” to mask the submarines movements in and out of waters that may be classified as a “combat zone” (or whatever the actual term you bubble heads use). However, subs do not stop, or turn on a dime, anymore than any other ship of their size. If they were masking themselves in the prop noise of this Japanese tanker, and it had to suddenly stop, the crew of the sub may not have known in time that they were closing on the stern of the tanker. They _should_ know, they are trained for this type of stuff, but as mentioned above, sound bends funny in seawater. But I suspect that whoever was “at the conn” is gonna lose his dolphins, and quitely asked if he wants out of the service. [/QUOTE] This was my first guess–sneaking subs into the Gulf in advance of potential action against Iran. They were tagging along very close to the tanker to try to avoid Iranian detection. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/32 "2007-01-09T21:33:49Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] This was my first guess–sneaking subs into the Gulf in advance of potential action against Iran. They were tagging along very close to the tanker to try to avoid Iranian detection. [/QUOTE] Or maybe they got out of their depth because they were a little early in anticipating Bush’s much vaunted “surge” … 😛 ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/33 "2007-01-09T21:43:12Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Or maybe they got out of their depth because they were a little early in anticipating Bush’s much vaunted “surge” … 😛 [/QUOTE] Am I the only one who keeps thinking of those soda commercials …? “SURGE!!!” ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/34 "2007-01-09T21:45:06Z")
[QUOTE=robby] There are no absolute rules. The decision will be made by the CO’s superiors after reviewing the evidence. The rhetoric used to announce this is that the relevant superior has “lost confidence in his ability to command.” The rationale for firing the CO even if he is not present in the control room is simple–the CO is responsible for the entire ship, at all times. He is NEVER “off duty,” even asleep in his rack. More concretely, the CO is also responsible for the training and performance of all personnel under his command. If his OOD was incapable of properly carrying out his duties, then the CO should have taken steps to rectify this or gotten rid of him. Command at sea carries great authority, and great responsibility as well. There’s simply no excusing your way out of something like this. P.S. While subs are still generally referred to as “boats” by Navy personnel, subs are now _officially_ referred to as “ships” by the Navy. This is not inappropriate, as today’s subs are anywhere from 4-12 times larger than the old WWII diesel subs. This has filtered down such that it is not uncommon for a sub to be referred to today as a “ship.” [/QUOTE] The first rule of leadership, You can delegate authority, but you can never delegate responsiblity. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/35 "2007-01-09T21:50:35Z")
In the link the tanker was referred to as a super tanker. Is it possible that a ship that big could, due to the extreme amount of water displaced, effect the handling of the sub? As far as the responsibilty of the CO goes, I read a biography of a US Naval captain during WWII. His comment was that if somthing happened to the ship, regardless of what he was doing at the time (asleep, in the head, whatever) he had to reply that he was in command and he had to take the heat. He said he knew that he had trained his crew right, when one time they woke him up to tell him “By the way captain, we sunk a German sub while you were asleep.” ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/36 "2007-01-10T01:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] In the link the tanker was referred to as a super tanker. Is it possible that a ship that big could, due to the extreme amount of water displaced, effect the handling of the sub? [/QUOTE] Not unless the sub was **very** close to the tanker, like 50 feet or less. You could get a venturi effect that might pull the sub toward the tanker. (This can be a problem with surface ships during underway replenishment.) ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/37 "2007-01-10T01:21:22Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] 10 Virtual Bucks says that sub was on the surface, and not submerged. I could be wrong given their geographic location, but I doubt that sub was submerged. And there may be no international rule to giving subs the right of way, but here in the US and it’s waters the USCG says always give subs and military vehicles the right of way. This includes ferries and commercial vessels. [/QUOTE] To be specific, in U.S. waters, U.S. Navy vessels (among other vessel types) have a security zone set around them which is enforced by the local CG Captain of the Port. So, they don’t have the ‘right of way’ in a ‘rules of the road’ sense, but operation of a vessel within the security zone is restricted. I don’t have any specifics on this case, but both vessels would have been severely limited by draft if they were in shallow waters (assuming the sub was surfaced). In fact, if it was a big enough tanker, fully laden, I’d bet the tanker drew more water than the sub did. A VLCC can draw over 20 meters when loaded. As to the OP, ships bump each other all the time. Yeah, you’d think it shouldn’t happen as often as it does, but here we are. Many times, collisions are a result of communication failures, either between the two ships, or within one ship among the bridge crew. Language barriers certainly present a HUGE problem when plying the world’s oceans. Ships nearing one another will attempt to clarify their respective intentions for safe passing via VHF radio, but much can be lost when language barriers interfere. “I’ll leave you on my port side” may come across as “I’m coming to port side”, or something similar. Or, a local pilot who speaks language “X”, is trying to give helm/lee helm commands to a bridge crew who only understand language “Y”. I’ve stood on the bridge on many ships entering port and, to be honest, I can’t believe collisions and allisions don’t happen more often just from language issues alone. Another cause of mishaps is how vessels appear to one another when they’re close to each other. Bridge crews rely on all the fancy equipment for navigation and safe water, but when driving around other ships, often it’s just ‘seaman’s eye’. And that eye can lie to you. It may be hard to note when a big ship that’s close aboard is actually turning; they move so slowly that by the time you realize what’s going on, it’s too late. Remember, these ships don’t stop on a dime. A fully loaded tanker could take miles to stop. Sometimes, in very congested waters, big ships can sneak up on you. No, seriously - they do. As the Officer of the Deck, you’ll be monitoring contact “A”, as it poses the most immediate danger to your navigation. You’re also looking at contacts “B” through “J”, when someone calls out contact “K” that’s 12 miles away and closing. You put contact “K” in the mental queue that is your list of worries, but it’s way down on that list for the moment. You’ll check it every few minutes and gauge the time you’ll have before you _really_ need to start worrying about him. As you deal with contacts “A” - “F”, “K” has made great strides towards closing the distance with you, but he’s not on your mental RADAR yet, given your earlier assessments. Before you know it, “K” is riding up your ass at 400 yards and your Captain is wondering if you’ve “lost the bubble”. And, in fact, you may have “lost the bubble”, overcome by “tunnel vision” due to “RADAR hypnosis” because, let’s face it, you’re in over your head here but as a military man, you don’t dare bring that little fact to anyone’s attention lest you want to be seen as someone who can’t hack it. It happens. So, who knows why these two ships collided, but it really isn’t all that surprising that they did. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/38 "2007-01-10T01:45:12Z")
I’ve been sailing in Block Island Sound (which submarines from Groton have to transit to get to the open ocean) in a crossing situation with a submarine proceeding on the surface. I initially thought it was a large black powerboat with a small dingy on a very long tow, but eventually realized that I was looking at the conning tower and tail fin of a nuke. At about the time I relalized what I was crossing, and that there was a possibility that were on a close to a collision course (though we were more than a mile apart at that time), I saw the sub make a significant turn to avoid me. After a moment of WTF, I realized that as a vessel under sail, I had right of way over the powered vessel, nuclear warship though it was. I certainly would have gotten the heck out of its way had we gotten much closer, but the sub made the first move to avoid (or at least so it appeared to me). In general, an overtaking vessel is required to keep clear of the overtaken vessel, so unless there is some other factor in play that I don’t know about, the submarine would be the vessel at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/39 "2007-01-10T01:52:40Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] **Robby** - I’ve seen the Orient Point Ferry on two separate occasions give way to subs coming out of New London Harbor. I’m not saying you are wrong - as I am not a submariner - but just that I have seen this happen. [/QUOTE] As someone who sails those waters, it is simply a darn good idea to get out of the way of significantly larger vessels, particularly warships, regardless of who technically has the right of way. As my father called it, it is the “cement mixer” theory of right of way – i.e. the cement mixer always has right of way on the highway because you damn sure don’t want to get into a collision with one. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289/40 "2007-01-10T02:17:37Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] I’m not sure, but I don’t think you can _ **Hotdog** _ in a submarine. Perhaps one could think they are above the rest and not give right of way, but I doubt hotdogg’in was involved. [/QUOTE] “last time we did this in 2:04, Jefferson here in my pocket says you can’t break the 2:00 barrier”, “I’ll give you a quarter if you do this without sonar” or something to that effect. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-the-uss-newport-news-manage-to-hit-a-tanker/387289.md?page=3)