# How did they come up with state borders? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 27, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720 "2000-09-27T06:37:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/21 "2000-09-27T19:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Edward the Head_ > **(T)he MD/VA border is a mess, MD owns a lot of the river but in some spots it gets split down the middle and at other times VA gets the river. you really need to look at a large scale map.** Point ceded. I’ve never looked at the whole thing. **SirRay** ’s item on the chunks of Delaware attached to New Jersey bring to mind the same feature in Rhode Island, firmly attached to Massachusetts across the Narragansett Bay. It really makes you wonder what kinda hemp the Founding Fathers were using for rolling papers when they drew these borders up. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/22 "2000-09-27T20:57:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SoMoMom \* > **In order for Missouri to be a Southern state and allow slavery to be legal it had to steal some of Arkansas’ territory** Sorry SoMoMom, I hate to destroy a cherished school memory, but the answer is a little more prosaic. 1. Missouri became a state in 1821, Arkansas in 1836, so Missouri didn’t “steal” anything from Arkansas. 2. Missouri’s slave status was fixed by the Missouri Compromise. So basically, it was a slave state because Congress said so. 3. The original southern border was fixed at 36 degrees 30 minutes north. However, a large landowner (now we get to the heart of the matter!) decided he’d rather have his holdings in the state of Missouri, rather than the territory. He lobbied, and Congress agreed to jog the border down the White River (now the St. Francois) to the 36 degree point. And I’ll bet if you go back through history, a lot of the little jogs and squiggles in state boundaries are because some landowners decided they’d rather be in one state than another. ---
**Author:** ![KCB615](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea666f/32.png) [@KCB615](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KCB615)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/23 "2000-09-27T21:02:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Why does a little bit of Massacusetts “blip” down into Connecticut Stops us from sliding off of the continent and out into the Atlantic Ocean… ---
**Author:** ![BrothaTJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d07c76/32.png) [@BrothaTJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrothaTJ)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2000, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/24 "2000-09-27T23:34:01Z")
The Illinois-Wisconsin border was actually supposed to be about 40 miles to the south of where it is now, but lawmakers on the Illinois side of the border freaked out that they weren’t getting enough land bordering the lake, so they successfully got the border pushed up to its present location. Sorry cheeseheads. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/25 "2000-09-28T00:55:18Z")
All right! I know the answer to one of the specific questions in the OP! The screwy Idaho border - the one you’re probably wondering about, between Idaho and Montana, is another river, for at least most of the way. Sorry it’s not more exciting. ---
**Author:** ![jcarbon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d78d45/32.png) [@jcarbon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcarbon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/26 "2000-09-28T01:41:27Z")
The land that PA,NY and DE didn’t want became New Jersey. It’s name comes from an old Indian word meaning “land of toxic waste”. I swear this is true. Otherwise I wouldn’t be allowed to put quotation marks around it. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/27 "2000-09-28T02:39:29Z")
The southern border of Iowa was decided by the Honey War. The far southeastern corner was known as the half breed tract. The little part that doesn’t look like it belongs there. For more info on the Honey War look [url=“[http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug2000/2000L-08-16-10.html](http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug2000/2000L-08-16-10.html)”]here ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/28 "2000-09-28T02:41:59Z")
well heck try [here](http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug2000/2000L-08-16-10.html) ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/29 "2000-09-28T03:12:56Z")
Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah have their borders because the cartographers just got lazy. :D:D ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/30 "2000-09-28T03:33:43Z")
Tamex’s story is correct. Get out the map of Montana, and you will note that the border with Idaho follows the continental divide up to the point where route 93 enters the state, a place called “Lost Trail Pass”. The divide veers sharply back towards Butte at that point. The border from that point on does not follow any river - they started surveying along the wrong range thinking it was the divide. Understandable, since the rivers do some very screwy things in that part of the country. The point at which the border shoots straight north is where they found the Clark Fork running the “wrong way” and kind of went “oh shit”. Other border oddities: Pa’s circular border with Delaware, and the “Northwest Triangle” (the bit that Erie’s on, obtained from NY so they would have some frontage on the Great Lakes). The part of Kentucky that is entirely separated, both by land and water, from the rest of Kentucky. Get out a map and look at KY, MO and TN in the vicinity of New Madrid, MO. The “Northwest Angle” in Minnesota - that’s the little bump that sticks up above the 49th parallel into Canada. That happened because one of the first US / English agreements to establish the border set it at the northern edge of Lake of the Woods, to extend west. Trouble was, they were working from incorrect maps that showed the lake considerably south of its actual location. Britain cried foul, the US said “well the treaty says northern end of Lake of the Woods”. They arrived at a compromise on the 49th parallel, leaving the western end for another fight, and allowing the US that little bit above the line because they had already established a settlement at Angle Inlet. ---
**Author:** ![Beruang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@Beruang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beruang)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/31 "2000-09-28T04:13:01Z")
I seem to recall reading that the reason for pushing the Illinois border north was to include the small-but-growing hamlet of Chicago, and thus give the Illinois territory a large enough population to petition for statehood. Yes, Idaho is made up of bits and pieces left over from carving out the other nearby states. Don’t know about Oklahoma, though. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/32 "2000-09-28T04:17:33Z")
Zev: I, too, have heard that tale of how Staten Island was “won” for NYS by means of a race around the island between NY and NJ boat captains. I never knew if it was true, so I checked the Encyclopedia of New York City. The “Staten Island” entry mentions a disputed NY/NJ ownership issue in the 1660-70’s, but it doesn’t seem to have amounted to much of a big deal. Certainly if there was a big cinematic boat race, it would have been mentioned there, or elsewhere in the entry. So, it looks like another sweet myth bites the dust in the name of fighting ignorance. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/33 "2000-09-28T04:31:45Z")
The eastern border of Iowa is not the center of the mississippi or either bank but the channel.I’m not sure what they did before the corps of engineers built the lock and dam system. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/34 "2000-09-28T05:00:06Z")
The last treaty estabilshing the MN-Canadian border between the Northwest Angle and Lake Superior was not signed until the 1920s - some 60 years after statehood. If you look at any map you’ll see that area is swamps and lakes and rivers that all connect together one way or another. It wasn’t until the area was thoroughly and properly mapped that it was all sorted out. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/35 "2000-09-28T06:16:37Z")
…but Staten Island appears to be firmly an early outpost of New Amsterdam. The first annual cattle fair opened in 1641 on the Marktveldt, just outside the walls of the fort. Settlements sprang up on Staten Island under the leadership of David de Vries, a ship captain who had been involved in the Swandndael patroonship, and Cornelis Melyn, an Antwerp merchant and sometime director of the West India Company. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/36 "2000-09-28T17:51:18Z")
The Dutch bought Staten Island from the Indians in 1630. I don’t know if it was considered to be part of the New Netherlands colony. (There were also Dutch settlements in New Jersey). There were no permanent settlements on Staten Island until just three years before England took over from the Dutch. The problem of the Northwest Angle: The original treaty called for the border to run from the northern end of Lake of the Woods due west to the Mississippi River. What they didn’t know was that the Mississippi’s source is farther south than the Lake of the Woods. The little thing in Massachusetts that sticks down into Connecticut is called the “Southwick Jog”. There was a long-running boundary dispute between the colonies. Four townships in the disputed area chose to leave Mass. and join Conn. (It was already Taxachusetts even then). After the Revolution, a commission suggested that Conn. should give back a parcel of land to Mass. in compensation for Massachusetts’ loss of the four townships. Conn. eventually gave back about a smaller parcel than the commision recommended, the Southwick Jog. This according to [http://www.cslib.org/faq.htm](http://www.cslib.org/faq.htm) There’s an interesting story behind the New Hampshire-Massachusetts border. In colonial times, the border was supposed to run a certain number of miles (five?) beyond the left bank of the Merrimack River. What they didn’t know is that the river takes a sharp turn at Lowell. If the original terms had held up, New Hampshire would now be about half as big, and the sites of Nashua, Manchester, Concord, and Keene would be in Massachusetts. New Hampshire petitioned the King and he decreed that from the vicinity of Lowell, the border should run east-west. ---
**Author:** ![Tamex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Tamex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamex)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/37 "2000-09-28T20:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Smeghead \* > \*\* > The screwy Idaho border - the one you’re probably wondering about, between Idaho and Montana, is another river, for at least most of the way. Sorry it’s not more exciting. \*\* What river would that be? All it says on my map is “Bitterroot Range”, part of which makes up the Continental Divide, and part of which doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrothaTJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d07c76/32.png) [@BrothaTJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrothaTJ)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/38 "2000-09-28T22:07:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yabob \* > \*\*The point at which the border shoots straight north is where they found the Clark Fork running the “wrong way” and kind of went “oh shit”. > \*\* LOL it’s funny how our history is shaped by little things like that. In southern Illinois there’s a small portion of the state on the west side of the Mississippi River containing a town called Kaskaskia, which used to be the Illinois state capital at some point. Does anyone in the St. Louis/southern Illinois area know why the heck Illinois got this piece of land? Or how they came up with the exact boundary? I think it’s the only instance in the entire western border of Illinois that it crosses the Mississippi. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/39 "2000-09-28T22:53:36Z")
> [@](#): > > In southern Illinois there’s a small portion of the state on the west side of the Mississippi River containing a town called Kaskaskia, which used to be the Illinois state capital at some point. Does anyone … know why the heck Illinois got this piece of land? Or how they came up with the exact boundary? I think it’s the only instance in the entire western border of Illinois that it crosses the Mississippi. Just a WAG- probably the land was originally on the east bank, and at some point the Mississippi changed its course a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/40 "2000-09-28T22:54:14Z")
Rhode Island only narrowly escaped being completely absorbed. After the 1637 Pequot War, a territorial dispute erupted between Massachusetts Bay and Connecticut. Both claimed right of conquest to the Pequot territory, which lies mostly in Connecticut but partly in Rhode Island as well. A temporary compromise was reached whereby Massachusetts controlled the coast between the Mystic River and (through creative map-making) an indeterminate spot somewhere in western Rhode Island. Plymouth, seeing its chances of westward expansion now threatened by both the disputed claim of Rhode Island and Massachusetts Bay, also produced a (very creative) map and carefully picked testimony. Their charter allowed them expansion westward to “Narragansett Bay.” So Plymouth produced documentation to show that the mighty “Narragansett Bay” was in actuality the mouth of the Pawcatuck River–the _western_ border of Rhode Island. The problem was temporarily alleviated by the demise of Cromwell. Then Connecticut (who still quietly also claimed much of Rhode Island) stirred up the issue again by giving the whole of western Rhode Island _back to the Pequots!_ The dispute lingered on until well into the early 1700’s, when a group of “ancient Indians” were brought forward to testify that the Pawcatuck was in fact called “Narragansett Bay.” Massachusetts, having successfully absorbed Plymouth by then, and their claim, was nevertheless unsuccessful in grabbing Rhode Island. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720.md?page=3)