# How did they come up with state borders? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 27, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720 "2000-09-27T06:37:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/41 "2000-09-29T00:10:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamex \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Smeghead \* > > \*\* > > The screwy Idaho border - the one you’re probably wondering about, between Idaho and Montana, is another river, for at least most of the way. Sorry it’s not more exciting. \*\* > > What river would that be? All it says on my map is “Bitterroot Range”, part of which makes up the Continental Divide, and part of which doesn’t. > > \*\* Everybody look around and remember what you are doing right now. For I hereby admit that I was totally, completely, dumbassedly wrong on this one. Tell your grandkids you were here. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/42 "2000-09-29T00:25:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by LazarusLong42 \* > \*\* > ([…]Though what I wonder is why Virginia owns that tiny sliver of the Delmarva peninsula.)_\* Me too. Anyone know? (I love these kinds of threads.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/43 "2000-09-29T03:56:29Z")
That part of Kentucky on the right bank of the Mississippi, and the other odd little bits of states on the “wrong” bank, are due to the river having changed its course after the boundaries were set. The largest such piece is the Kentucky part near New Madrid. In 1811-1812 the most powerful earthquakes ever recorded in the United States struck, with the epicenter at New Madrid. That made the Mississippi run backward for a while. Not surprisingly, the river wound up in some new channels afterwards. The old state border where the river used to be wasn’t changed. The geophysics department at Saint Louis University has been monitoring seismic activity along the New Madrid Fault _very_ carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/44 "2000-09-29T15:07:59Z")
If you look at old maps, the northern border of Maryland used to stretch further to the north. When the colony of Pennsylania was chartered, conventional wisdom held that most of it was useless wasteland, so Maryland was gracious enough to let its border be lowered and also gave Governor Penn a slab of land on Delaware Bay, so that the new colony would not be landlocked. Over time, the city of Philadelphia grew into one of the largest seaports on the Atlantic Seaboard, which made Maryland wonder why it had surrendered its northeastern corner in the first place. Maryland started to make noises that Philadelphia was actually in Maryland and that the borders ought to be redrawn. After all, Pennsylvania was not actually landlocked, since the Delaware River proved to be easily navigable (as did the Susquehanna River.) Pennsylvania was very averse to surrendering Philadelphia and its southern lands, so a dispute kicked up. Pennsylvania felt the land it had acquired from Maryland was Pennsylvanian for keeps. Somehow the compromise was struck that Pennsylvania’s southeastern panhandle should be taken away, but not given to Maryland. It was thus established that this disputed territory should be a colony of its own, and that’s how Delaware came into existance. (Why its northern border is rounded the way it is, I have no idea, except maybe to include Wilmington, which was the largest city in Delaware at the time—and still is.) Maryland continued to fuss about its northern border over time, insisting that it should include southern Pennsylvania and thus the cities of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. This feud was eventually settled when the cartographers Mason and Dixon drew a line that established most of the southern border of Pennsylvania (the Delaware/Pennsylvania border notwithstanding, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/45 "2000-09-29T15:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > That part of Kentucky on the right bank of the Mississippi, and the other odd little bits of states on the “wrong” bank, are due to the river having changed its course after the boundaries were set. The largest such piece is the Kentucky part near New Madrid. Does that part of Kentucky have a name? It seems like every other border-related curiosity does. Some Kentuckian at some point must have said to his friend “Say, what do we call that odd bit near New Madrid?” ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/46 "2000-09-29T19:19:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nebuli \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > In southern Illinois there’s a small portion of the state on the west side of the Mississippi River containing a town called Kaskaskia, which used to be the Illinois state capital at some point. Does anyone … know why the heck Illinois got this piece of land? Or how they came up with the exact boundary? I think it’s the only instance in the entire western border of Illinois that it crosses the Mississippi. > > Just a WAG- probably the land was originally on the east bank, and at some point the Mississippi changed its course a bit. \*\* Uncle Cecil explains here: [Sucker Bets 101: Illinois lies east of the Mississippi](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_167a.html) ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/47 "2000-09-30T01:55:17Z")
Thanks Dave. Having my WAG vindicated, I’ll take a stab at the Delmarva question. Montford said > [@](#): > > * * * > > Originally posted by LazarusLong42 > > ## ([…]Though what I wonder is why Virginia owns that tiny sliver of the Delmarva peninsula.) > > Me too. Anyone know? > > (I love these kinds of threads.) This sort of reminds me of the old joke- What’s the easiest way to make a small fortune? Start with a large fortune. Virginia owns the tip of the Delmarva Peninsula because it originally owned the whole peninsula and that sliver is all it has left. In 1606 King James granted Virginia a northern boundary which covered all of present Maryland, Delaware and parts of southern Pennsylvania. In 1632 Charles I granted Lord Baltimore all of Virginia north of the south bank of the Potomac, which area became the colony of Maryland. West of Cheasepeake Bay the boundary obviously just followed the course of the Potomac. For the boundary east of the Cheasepeake they extended a line due east from the southernmost part of the mouth of the river where it met the Bay. Virginia was left with only the part of Delmarva which was south of that line. The fact that the line in Delmarva today is not perfectly straight, as well as the variations in the present boundary along the Potomac as pointed out by Edward the Head, show there have been some small adjustments over the years, but the basic outline was set by that 1632 grant. And for the subsequent adjustments among MD, DE and PA see Chance the Gardner’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Bobort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bobort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobort)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/48 "2000-09-30T07:26:27Z")
Being a former resident of Delaware, I dimly remembered enough about the circular northern border to track down an [explanation](http://members.aol.com/outtengene/dela002.htm) on the web: > [@](#): > > ``` > In 1678 the northern boundary of Delaware was settled within a radius of twelve miles from the town of New Castle as the center of the circle, and from the Delaware and Maryland. This radius gave to Delaware a circular northern boundary, and the arc of the circle is just twelve miles form New Castle County court house, which was at that time, located at New Castle, but the old building has since been destroyed and the county seat transferred to the city of Wilmington. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Zamboni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Zamboni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Zamboni)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/49 "2000-10-04T22:22:03Z")
Why does Nevada look so weird? Was this disputed land between CA, AZ, and UT that became it’s own state instead? Is Louisiana shaped like an L in memory of King Louis, or is this another myth? I have seen old maps that show Alabama’s and Mississippi’s parts of land along the gulf used to be Florida, but I don’t know if the maps were real. Why are Alabama and Mississippi mirror images? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/50 "2000-10-04T22:50:01Z")
Those parts of AL and MS were, at least in part, the Spanish territory of Florida. In the early 1800s, American squatters steadily moved in, staged a revolt, and declared themselves the [Republic of West Florida](http://www.saint-francisville.la.us/republic.htm). They then conveniently asked to be annexed by the United States. If this sounds familiar, it is because it happened more than once. California and Texas pulled similar tricks, each time with the United States officially claiming no complicity. I believe it was tried again in British Columbia (54’ 40" Or Fight!), but the Brits were having none of that. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/51 "2000-11-16T16:10:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ishmintingas \* > \*\*That part of Kentucky on the right bank of the Mississippi, and the other odd little bits of states on the “wrong” bank, are due to the river having changed its course after the boundaries were set. The largest such piece is the Kentucky part near New Madrid. > > In 1811-1812 the most powerful earthquakes ever recorded in the United States struck, with the epicenter at New Madrid. That made the Mississippi run backward for a while. Not surprisingly, the river wound up in some new channels afterwards. The old state border where the river used to be wasn’t changed.\*\* There’s definately part of Kentucky on the western side of the Mississippi that was on the eastern side at one time. This is ENE of New Madrid, MO. But the little knob south of New Madrid (Toneys Towhead, I think) is part of Kentucky, delineated by an _old_ (and current) channel of the Mississippi River and a straight line border that’s an extension of the KY/TN border east of the first Mississippi crossing into Tennessee. If the Mississippi ever cut through _south_ of Bessie, TN, then we’d have a really have a strange situation: a landlocked part of a state completely surrounded by other states. (OK, they have it now, but the river is still in the picture.) ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2000, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/52 "2000-11-17T19:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > But the little knob south of New Madrid (Toneys Towhead, I think) is part of Kentucky, delineated by an old (and current) channel of the Mississippi River and a straight line border that’s an extension of the KY/TN border east of the first Mississippi crossing into Tennessee. Yeah, that’s the key. It’s on the wrong side of the river to be in MO, and the border line between TN and KY is roughly horizontal. The river bends so severely that it loops up over the latitude line then completely beneath it, so that a “tongue” of MO separates the peninsula across from New Madrid form the rest of Kentucky. However, the KY/TN border is extended across the peninsula. [BTW, I’m not sure “peninsula” is the right word for this sort of thing when formed by a river - what do you call the bit of land inside an oxbow?] It’s worth looking at a map to see this peculiarity: [MAP](http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn%2Ftwn-map_results&random=467&event=find_search&SNVData=3mad3-9.fy%2528at2u67_%2529f82u67%253bah7-%253d%253a%2528_%253d%253abad672%253d%253d1su672%253d0%2Crb%253b7&country=United+States&address=&city=New+Madrid&State=MO&Zip=&Find+Map=Get+Map) That link contains a buttload of wierd syntax. Here it is listed out in case it doesn’t work: [link was screwing up the scrolling, and it was broken anyway --Chronos] [Edited by Chronos on 11-17-2000 at 09:08 PM] ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2000, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/53 "2000-11-17T19:24:01Z")
Well, I just demonstrated that you can’t cut and paste mapquest search URL’s. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2000, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/54 "2000-11-20T18:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yabob \* > \*\*(BTW, I’m not sure “peninsula” is the right word for this sort of thing when formed by a river - what do you call the bit of land inside an oxbow?) I think peninsula is a proper term, even if it’s a river that defines the structure. If a piece of land is in the middle of a river, it’s called an island, even if islands are made by being the tops of oceanic volcanos as well. I thought “towhead” was the term, coming from the name Toneys Towhead that I had found. But after looking it up, it doesn’t appear so. [Map of Western Kentucky](http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn%2Ftwn-map_results&random=244&event=find_search&uid=u6w003h4z7s5n2we%3Arw041agf7&SNVData=3mad3-9.fy%2528at2u67_%2529f82u67%253bah7-%253d%253a%2528_%253d%253abad672%253d%253d1su672%253d0%2Crb%253b7&country=United+States&address=&city=new+madrid&State=mo&Zip=&Find+Map=Get+Map) ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2000, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/55 "2000-11-20T19:12:32Z")
Hmmm. Your link has the same problem mine did - I just got a map of the US. Take a close look at that link - there’s a bunch of encrypted gobbledy-goo in it, including a user id. Mapquest searche results appear to be dependent on session info, and apparently can’t be pasted or bookmarked. A pity - that’s a good map which illustrates the anomaly quite well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Zamboni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Zamboni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Zamboni)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2000, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/56 "2000-11-20T23:06:09Z")
Why does Alaska have that leg of land along British Columbia? Was it an agreement between Canada, the US and Russia? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2000, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/57 "2000-11-20T23:52:12Z")
Squatter’s rights. Russia established themselves at Sitka, which was initially the capital of the whole Russian territory: [http://www.inalaska.com/d/sitka/history.html](http://www.inalaska.com/d/sitka/history.html) It was obviously in Russia’s interest to grab as much of the coast as they could, and essentially, noone was up there to stop them. I think Alaska’s outline looks like a bird-splat anyway. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Zamboni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Zamboni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Zamboni)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2000, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/58 "2000-11-20T23:56:43Z")
Interesting. Of all the places there could have been a capitol, it was Sitka. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2000, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/59 "2000-11-21T19:08:45Z")
I’d still like to know what that disconnected bit of Kentucky is called. Does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2000, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720/60 "2000-11-21T20:04:14Z")
AWB - a “towhead” is a low alluvial island in a river - essentially a sandbar. Name of that bit of Kentucky: According to the topo map obtained at mapquest, the northern end of it is called, logically enough, if a bit prosaically, “Kentucky Point”. Other features on it include “Watson Point”, “Kentucky Point Bar”, “Stonewall Lake”, and “Watson Lake”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-come-up-with-state-borders/34720.md?page=4)