# How Did They Qualify Cities In Austria-Hungary **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589 "2008-12-10T18:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/1 "2008-12-10T18:35:03Z")
For instance we say Paris, France or Cairo, Egypt or Philadelphia, United States. Did they say Vienna, Austria-Hungary and Budapest, Austria-Hungary or did they keep the terms national and say “Vienna, Austria” and “Budapest, Hungary.” Even though it was a dual monarchy? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/2 "2008-12-10T18:57:11Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > For instance we say Paris, France or Cairo, Egypt or Philadelphia, United States. Who says these? The most important cities with these names don’t usually require qualifiers. Do newspapers or TV news reporters in the US actually print/say ‘Paris, France’? For what it’s worth the New York Times used to just print ‘Vienna’ if the story originated there without referring to the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/3 "2008-12-10T19:11:59Z")
I have census records for some of my Austro-Hungarian ancestors…they immigrated in the 1870s. Their country of origin was listed only as “Hungary” (though they spoke German and their town would end up in post WWI Austria later)…so I presume that for practical purposes, Austria and Hungrary were considered two nations who happened to share the same ruler. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/4 "2008-12-10T19:24:23Z")
Austria-Hungary was an Empire; empires by definition contain one or more distinct nations. How the official record was, I don’t know (and it might depend on who and where and for what purpose), but internally they recognized a distinction between Austria and Hungary. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/5 "2008-12-10T19:44:40Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Who says these? I find qualifying things like that is a bit of an Americanism. In America towns are usually qualified by their state names so you say “Rome, Ohio” or “Springfield, Illinois”. Hence when talking about non-US cities Americans usually qualify it in the same way e.g. “London, England” or “Paris, France”. Non Americans don’t usually do this, if they need to qualify the city names, they would say something like “the French town of Nice” or “Nice, in Southern France”. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/6 "2008-12-10T20:10:11Z")
I think that custom results from the widespread reuse of town and city names in the US. In Europe names are to a much larger degree unique. And when they aren’t unique, it’s likely they’re within the same country and have a customary additional qualifier. Like Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt and die Oder. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/7 "2008-12-10T20:41:05Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Who says these? Me. And worse. Practically every day we were in Cairo, I said to my (then) wife, “I can’t believe we’re in Cairo. Egypt. _Africa_.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/8 "2008-12-10T21:08:47Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I think that custom results from the widespread reuse of town and city names in the US. In Europe names are to a much larger degree unique. And when they aren’t unique, it’s likely they’re within the same country and have a customary additional qualifier. Like Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt and die Oder. Use of the saints of different parishes was another common one. Near me there’s Tuddenham St Mary and Tuddenham St Martin, some thirty miles apart, each known simply as Tuddenham when it’s obvious which one is being referred to. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/9 "2008-12-10T21:40:44Z")
The Dual Monarchy was a union (a) of crowns and (b) for specific purposes, notably diplomacy and defense, of two nations, the Archduchy of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary. Each nation had its own bureaucracy, laws, parliament, etc. Vienna had, besides the national government for Austria, the imperial ministries; Budapest, the national government for Hungary and a couple of sops from the joint ministries. In very rough terms, Austria comprised Slovenia (but with all the Istrian peninsula), the present Italian province of Friulia-Venezia Giulia, Austria, and the present Czech Republic. Hungary comprised Croatia, the Vojvodina in modern Serbia, Transylvania in Romania, Hungary, and Slovakia. Southeast modern Poland, called Galicia, belonged to one nation or the other, but I don’t recall which. In addition to the two nations, Bosnia and Herzegovina was a protectorate incorporated within the empire but distinct from either nation. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/10 "2008-12-10T22:07:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The Dual Monarchy was a union (a) of crowns and (b) for specific purposes, notably diplomacy and defense, of two nations, the Archduchy of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary. Each nation had its own bureaucracy, laws, parliament, etc. Vienna had, besides the national government for Austria, the imperial ministries; Budapest, the national government for Hungary and a couple of sops from the joint ministries. In very rough terms, Austria comprised Slovenia (but with all the Istrian peninsula), the present Italian province of Friulia-Venezia Giulia, Austria, and the present Czech Republic. Hungary comprised Croatia, the Vojvodina in modern Serbia, Transylvania in Romania, Hungary, and Slovakia. Southeast modern Poland, called Galicia, belonged to one nation or the other, but I don’t recall which. In addition to the two nations, Bosnia and Herzegovina was a protectorate incorporated within the empire but distinct from either nation. Which reminds me of a fictional work by the great [Avram Davidson…](http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/300.html) > [@](#): > > The Adventures of Doctor Eszterhazy was published shortly before Davidson’s death. This book, which is an expansion from the earlier The Enquiries of Doctor Eszterhazy, follows the history of Eszterhazy in his fictional kingdom of Scythia-Pannonia-Transbalkania during the reign of Emperor Ignats Louis. The stories cover a period from Engelbert Eszterhazy’s youth when he worked as an equerry in the story “Cornet Eszterhazy” through his several degrees until “The King’s Shadow Has No Limits.” These stories, which could be considered fantasy, tend to borrow as much from Sherlock Holmes and The Prisoner of Zenda as they do from standard fantasy texts. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/11 "2008-12-10T23:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Southeast modern Poland, called Galicia, belonged to one nation or the other, but I don’t recall which. Galicia was considered as a semi-autonomous province of Austria. It had a viceroy appointed by Vienna but the rest of the provincial administration was under de facto local control. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/12 "2008-12-11T02:15:46Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > I have census records for some of my Austro-Hungarian ancestors…they immigrated in the 1870s. Their country of origin was listed only as “Hungary” (though they spoke German and their town would end up in post WWI Austria later)…so I presume that for practical purposes, Austria and Hungrary were considered two nations who happened to share the same ruler. Yeah. My grandparents came here in the early 1900s. Their records indicate they were from “Hungary” or “Magyar” (no more and no less.) FWIW the Hungarians never considered themselves “Austro-Hungarian” the way a Scot might consider himself “British.” They were Hungarians who happened to share a throne with those German-speaking folks over there. ---
**Author:** ![footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9f8e36/32.png) [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/footballisplayedwithyourfeet)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/13 "2008-12-11T10:25:28Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I find qualifying things like that is a bit of an Americanism. In America towns are usually qualified by their state names so you say “Rome, Ohio” or “Springfield, Illinois”. Hence when talking about non-US cities Americans usually qualify it in the same way e.g. “London, England” or “Paris, France”. Non Americans don’t usually do this, if they need to qualify the city names, they would say something like “the French town of Nice” or “Nice, in Southern France”. exactly, I would never qualify a city in the ‘american way’ . ---
**Author:** ![Solfy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Solfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Solfy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/14 "2008-12-11T14:34:42Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Yeah. My grandparents came here in the early 1900s. Their records indicate they were from “Hungary” or “Magyar” (no more and no less.) > > FWIW the Hungarians never considered themselves “Austro-Hungarian” the way a Scot might consider himself “British.” They were Hungarians who happened to share a throne with those German-speaking folks over there. For another data point, my Hungarian great grandparent’s naturalization papers from the early 1900s list their origin simply as “Transylvania.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/15 "2008-12-11T15:53:26Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > …when talking about non-US cities Americans usually qualify it in the same way e.g. “London, England” or “Paris, France”… I disagree. ISTM that only a hick would routinely mention the countries after those cities’ names. Ditto Tokyo, Moscow, Madrid, Rome, Beijing, etc. The bigger the foreign city, the less likely the country needs to be specified. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/16 "2008-12-11T17:28:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I disagree. ISTM that only a hick would routinely mention the countries after those cities’ names. Ditto Tokyo, Moscow, Madrid, Rome, Beijing, etc. The bigger the foreign city, the less likely the country needs to be specified. Well, it might be necessary to make clear that one is not referring to London, Kentucky, or Paris, Texas. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/17 "2008-12-11T17:38:17Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Well, it might be necessary to make clear that one is not referring to London, Kentucky, or Paris, Texas. In the case of these large cities, you’re only going to be doing that if you’re in the vicinity of one of the smaller namesakes, or talking about both in the same conversation. Both of these are necessary exceptions to the rule. It works the other way, too, that if you’re in England and mention London or Perth, it’s clear if not by name then by context that you’re probably not talking about London, Ontario or Perth, Western Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/18 "2008-12-11T17:40:21Z")
I used to listen to a lot of shortwave, and they would always qualify everything. I remember it sounded weird because Americans say things like Chicago, Illinois, but shortwave said “Chicago, United States.” It would be that way on all then English shortwave, from BBC, Radio Cuba, Russia, Japan, all the countries with English broadcasts. They would qualify everything. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/19 "2008-12-11T19:47:14Z")
In the English language history books I have read, when they discuss the Austro-Hungarian Navy, the nationality is frequently shortened to “Austrian” (e.g. “Austrian Dreadnought _Szent Istvan_”, or “the Austrian base at Pola”). This may be because of the need to save space in printed material. It may be because of the unique relationship between the military (and the Navy specifically) and the government. I am not sure. Didn’t help, did I? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589/20 "2008-12-11T19:58:57Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I think that custom results from the widespread reuse of town and city names in the US. In Europe names are to a much larger degree unique. And when they aren’t unique, it’s likely they’re within the same country and have a customary additional qualifier. Like Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt and die Oder. Hate to nitpick, but… an _der_ Oder. The Oder river, like most German rivers, has the feminine gender(“die Oder”). “An” takes the dative. Dative form of “die” = “der”. (German grammar takes me back. Not to a happy place, either.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-they-qualify-cities-in-austria-hungary/476589.md?page=2)