# How did we arrive at Dance = Feminine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 21, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003 "2011-12-21T22:07:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/1 "2011-12-21T22:07:42Z")
The picture below shows an all-male troupe of Morris dancers. Now, frankly, I have no clue what a Morris dance is. I only chose the pic as an example of near-modern Western male dancing. We all know that primitive Africans and South Pacific islanders men just love to dance. But so did Europeans and Americans until more recently than you might think. Somewhere along the line a deep-seated assumption of dancing=feminine was taken on. So, for instance, my son had an abhorrence of dance when he was 7 years old when his younger sister was taking lessons. And the first time I took my daughter to the ballet and she saw male dancers among the ballerinas she leaned over and whispered, “Dad, what are those boys doing on the stage?” [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Morris.dancing.at.wells.arp.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Morris.dancing.at.wells.arp.jpg) It has come so far that I would expect most men to respond to this question with “so what?” As if I had asked how skirts or make-up had become relegated to feminine-only. How and why did this happen? It would have been strange to Gene Kelly and you-dirty-rat James Cagney. Some not-so-girly-men: Gene Kelly [![](http://www-tc.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/files/2008/09/610_kelly_intro.jpg) ](http://www-tc.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/files/2008/09/610_kelly_intro.jpg) James Cagney > **[Dee Inferno](https://channel2.typepad.com)** ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/2 "2011-12-21T22:37:49Z")
No idea, but it certainly works out well for us men who can dance. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/3 "2011-12-22T00:09:06Z")
That first picture reads as feminine to me (maybe the colors?) Also, the old dude with the beard is out of step. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/4 "2011-12-22T00:28:30Z")
I refute the OP thus: [Haka](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka_(sports)). 😛 (No Youtube access at work, but I’d encourge you to check out an example or two). Though… the more I think about it… NZ rugby players do kinda fit your “primitive” exemption. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/5 "2011-12-22T00:33:34Z")
Well, Terpsichore was the ancient Muse of dance and she’s feminine. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/6 "2011-12-22T00:46:21Z")
I’ve never thought of dance in general as feminine but certain kinds of dance such as modern (I guess that’s the proper term) and ballet are not dances I really care to watch men perform. There’s the obvious aspect of the costume. I love the male form but not in a leotard. Also, those particular dances emphasize grace and fluidity(?) which somehow don’t translate to masculine for me. And I really, really don’t want to see Chippendale type dancing; gag. I can absolutely appreciate the talent, discipline and gorgeous physicques of male dancers, so please don’t any of you male dancers out there take offense. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/7 "2011-12-22T01:03:23Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > The picture below shows an all-male troupe of Morris dancers. Now, frankly, I have no clue what a Morris dance is. I only chose the pic as an example of near-modern Western male dancing. Morris Dancing is still-current British dance style. It’s not exactly fashionable among the youth (as you can guess from that photo 😉 ) but I’ve certainly seen Morris sides (they’re not troupes, they’re called ‘sides’, if you want to sound expert) in the last year; they’re a common entertainment at summer fairs, especially at midsummer. In fact, a Morris group practices in the next building over to a club I go to weekly; though that one’s a mixed gender side, rather than the more common all-male. Several dances involve clashing large wooden sticks, the rest, for some reason, require several handkerchiefs. I can see the rather obvious stick masculinity metaphors, but I never did understand the hankies. So far as I can tell, it’s basically a way to get rascally drunk while pretending to exercise, all under the guise of tradition. They wear bells, so they’re easily avoided if you wish. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/8 "2011-12-23T03:22:35Z")
I think it came from the idea that the men who did this sort of thing were not the macho men. And those men were often made fun of by being called feminine since they didn’t do “man’s work.” ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/9 "2011-12-23T04:55:00Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > Somewhere along the line a deep-seated assumption of dancing=feminine was taken on. That’s only your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/10 "2011-12-23T05:03:04Z")
I first read this blog post years ago, but managed to dig it up again for this thread: > [@](#): > > No way. Look at the most macho, most hetero cultures on earth, and dancing by hetero men is not only the norm but encouraged. Back in the day, the founding fathers all were avid lovers of dancing. Andrew Jackson may be the most alpha president ever and he LOVED dance almost obsessively. Dancing is about embracing and being comfortable with your sexuality. In the West now straight men are so uncomfortable with their sexuality that the only men left who are still comfortable being overtly sexual in their body language are gay men. Dancing teaches men how to lead a woman, how to be used to putting your hands on her and directing her and be dominant. There’s a reason why being able to dance was considered a crucial part of a well-rounded gentleman’s education and finishing in the old days. After feminism really began to rule the day, we slowly started seeing men become uncomfortable with and guilty about their sexuality and dancing by straight men reached the sad state it’s at today. You look at men dancing like Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Sammy Davis, James Brown and can’t say they were acting gay. They were virile, hetero and dominating in their heyday and women loved them. From the same guy, later in the thread: > [@](#): > > In cultures where men are masculine and comfortable dealing with women and being in charge, dancing is a masculine endeavor. In a society where straight men only feel like they have their intellect to offer and are afraid of physically leading a woman or openly advertising their sexual prowess, they won’t dance. In western society only gay men are openly embracing their own sexuality and are unintimidated by women, so they are the only ones in the west dancing. This creates the current attitude of associating gayness with dancing among western men. > > Take Americans for example. Which American people are most likely to be unapologetic about being macho and dominant over their women? Proles, rednecks, black guys and various immigrant groups. And those are also the cultures most likely to emphasize dance as well. Look at some rednecks for example, they can line dance for hours on end without a hint of irony. (NO, I did not write this. NO, I do not completely agree with it…but I do think it raises some valid points.) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/11 "2011-12-23T05:14:57Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I’ve never thought of dance in general as feminine but certain kinds of dance such as modern (I guess that’s the proper term) and ballet are not dances I really care to watch men perform. I suspect a lot of people’s ideas about modern dance and ballet are horribly colored by conceptions of Isadora Duncan and the pop culture idea of a ballerina. I haven’t seen all that many dance performances, to be honest, yet the ones I’ve seen have been smooth and fluid, jerky and staccato, and even goofy slapstick. Me, I think people think dance is feminine because we’ve lost the culture that really emphasized the arts as part of a well-rounded education. Being interested in art, music, dance or theater seem to me like pursuits that are considered unmanly. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/12 "2011-12-23T05:19:45Z")
There are two separate things being discussed here: dancing _as a stage performance_ and dancing _as a social activity._ I just want to be sure that people realize the very big difference between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/13 "2011-12-23T05:26:35Z")
It’s not like there are two distinct and non-overlapping heritages for the two. Dancing as performance is an outgrowth of dance as a social activity, just as ceramics as art is an outgrowth of ceramics as kitchenware. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/14 "2011-12-23T05:34:14Z")
I don’t know. My son is 7 and has been asking me for ballet lessons since age 5, but i can’t afford them. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/15 "2011-12-23T14:34:33Z")
There was an interview recently on one of the NPR shows about the history of ballet. The discovery for me was to learn that ballet was originally much more male dominated and it wasn’t until it was professionalized that it shifted to women. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/16 "2011-12-23T17:42:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I think it came from the idea that the men who did this sort of thing were not the macho men. And those men were often made fun of by being called feminine since they didn’t do “man’s work.” Like, uh, Patrick Swayze, Mikhail Baryshniko, Gregory Hines and loads of other contemporary male dancers. Don’t forget Bollywood. Who makes fun of dancers? ---
**Author:** ![slm2955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@slm2955](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slm2955)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/17 "2011-12-23T17:48:49Z")
Since when is men dancing feminine? I think it’s sexy when a man knows how to dance. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/18 "2011-12-23T19:13:55Z")
Norman Mailer seems to have[absorbed the meme.](http://www.amazon.com/Tough-Guys-Dance-Norman-Mailer/dp/0345323211) If there is no such meme, why the title? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/19 "2011-12-23T20:18:54Z")
Middle-Aged Simon Pegg looks really happy to be Morrising there on the left… I think this notion of dance=feminine only really applies to _certain_ modern cultures. It’s certainly not the case in hip-hop culture, nor (modern) African township culture. Bollywood’s already been mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003/20 "2011-12-26T20:50:27Z")
I think the question might be better reformatted as, “Why do straight, middle class, white American men think dancing is feminine?” That seems to be about the only subculture where the OP’s observations hold true. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-arrive-at-dance-feminine/607003.md?page=2)