# "How Did We Become Bitter Political Enemies?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112 "2017-06-16T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/261 "2017-06-18T18:18:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Conservatives don’t seem to want ANY climate policy. In fact, Conservatives really don’t want anything to change at all (unless it’s reverting backwards). Let me see if I can adequately explain some positions here: > > Climate Change: > Left: Human caused climate change is a scientifically proven phenomenon that needs to be addressed before it causes untold cost and human suffering. > Right: We are fine with climate policies that don’t require us to change our spending habits and doesn’t affect business in any way. We aren’t even sure it exists because some study commissioned by ExxonMobil indicated it might not. > > Guns: > Left: The freedom of unrestricted gun ownership is not worth the loss of life > Right: Any loss of life is acceptable so long as we don’t have to give up our freedom to own guns. > > Gay Marriage: > Left: Gays should have the same rights as straights when it comes to marriage. > Right: It should be on a state by state basis so those homos in New York and California can get married if they want, but I don’t have to deal with it. > > Equality: > Left: All people deserve to be treated equally regardless of race, nationality, sex, gender, religion > Right: White American Christians enjoy an exceptionalism handed down by God almighty, however we are tolerant of “other” groups so long as they share our values (of White American Christian exceptionalism). > > Free Speech: > Left: All speech should be protected except for hate speech or yelling “fire” in a crowded room. > Right: Anyone trying to curtail my hate speech is infringing on my rights and isn’t accepting of other viewpoints. > > Foreign Policy: > Left: We need to work with our allies and other nations. > Right: The rest of the world needs to work with us. > > Government Spending: > Left: The resources of government should go towards building infrastructure and improving the lives of it’s citizens through education, health care and social safety nets. > Right: Anything other than military spending is Communism. > > Economics: > Left: The role of government is to curtain corporate excess and, when necessary, provide a safety net to support the economy. > Right: Poor people can go fuck themselves. One thing that keeps the two sides apart is the need to exaggerate, often grossly, the position of the other side. That was an excellent example you gave. I think you hit the nail on the head! That post was purely illustrative of that tendency, right? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/262 "2017-06-18T18:22:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > One thing that keeps the two sides apart is the need to exaggerate, often grossly, the position of the other side. That was an excellent example you gave. I think you hit the nail on the head! That post was purely illustrative of that tendency, right? Actually that bit about “an study commissioned by Exxon indicated otherwise” is wrong, Exxon scientists actually did agree with the IPCC and other science groups, but that has been kept under wraps by many right wing sources to their readers and viewers. That is one reason why we are in this position. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/263 "2017-06-18T18:35:29Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I don’t think they can clean it up. All our allies are going to be thinking ‘yeah the Americans elected someone sane and responsible in 2020, but what is to stop them from electing another deranged, mentally ill clown in 2024 or 2028’. > > I think the damage from Trump will take 20-30 years to fix. It isn’t going away in one election cycle. Our Allies will have their own beds to clean up. IMHO…Trudeau is going to get ousted. Sweden may Swexit (?)…France and the UK are only a few riots and attacks from going right. The only thing keeping them from doing so now is Jacob Trump Marley. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/264 "2017-06-18T18:38:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I wholeheartedly endorse this post and applaud the author. > > My succinct take on the question at hand: we became bitter enemies when one side became batshit crazy, when Republicans insulated themselves from reality by only paying attention to Hate Radio, Fox “News”, and Facebook memes. Or when they started trying to differentiate between “true” conservatives and RINOs, which has been one of the more ominous developments in my view. The global financial crisis and the disastrous campaign in Iraq were the end of the road for moderate conservatism. The Republican party for much of the 20th Century endorsed neoliberalism. When their policies failed, they were discredited. The Jeb Bushes, John McCains, and John Kasiches of the party, despite being conservative, weren’t conservative enough. And they were blamed for their party’s failures in 2008. With the establishment badly weakened, the fringe saw a clear path toward Republican leadership. Having been highly critical of conservatives and the GOP up to this point, I must say that going forward, I do worry that the Democratic party is undergoing a similar transformation. Seeing the potential rise of a fringe left concerns me almost as much as the rise of the right. The rise of Bernie Sanders was positive in some respects, but I also saw a similar kind of unruliness and disregard for proper decorum that concerns me. In no way is Bernie Sanders responsible for what happened to Rep. Scalise but the kind of chaotic energy that I saw in some of his legions of supporters is something to keep an eye on. What I absolutely hope this country can avoid is having the two major parties splinter into intense intra-party rivalries. That would be an extremely dangerous tipping point for our democracy. I realize it has already happened to some extent but to date the parties themselves have have had enough strength to prevent full-on break-ups from happening. But a multiparty congress with the wrong kind of Executive would be a potential nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/265 "2017-06-18T18:42:31Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Our Allies will have their own beds to clean up. IMHO…Trudeau is going to get ousted. Sweden may Swexit (?)…France and the UK are only a few riots and attacks from going right. The only thing keeping them from doing so now is Jacob Trump Marley. 😕 I think you are missing a lot of the actual news. > **[Donald Trump Is Making Europe Liberal Again](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-making-europe-liberal-again/)** > > It’s become harder to make the case that the nationalist tide is still on the rise. > [@](#): > > Donald Trump Is Making Europe Liberal Again > > n Dec. 4 last year, less than a month after Donald Trump had defeated Hillary Clinton, Austria held a revote in its presidential election, which pitted Alexander Van der Bellen, a liberal who had the backing of the Green Party, against Norbert Hofer of the right-wing Freedom Party. In May 2016, Van der Bellen had defeated Hofer by just more than 30,000 votes — receiving 50.3 percent of the vote to Hofer’s 49.7 percent — but the results had been annulled and a new election had been declared. Hofer had to like his chances: Polls showed a close race, but with him ever so slightly ahead in the polling average. Hofer cited Trump as an inspiration and said that he, like Trump, could overcome headwinds from the political establishment. > > So what happened? Van der Bellen won by nearly 8 percentage points. Not only did Hofer receive a smaller share of the vote than in May, but he also had fewer votes despite a higher turnout. Something had caused Austrians to change their minds and decide that Hofer’s brand of populism wasn’t such a good idea after all. > > The result didn’t get that much attention in the news outlets I follow, perhaps because it went against the emerging narrative that right-wing populism was on the upswing. But the May and December elections in Austria made for an interesting controlled experiment. The same two candidates were on the ballot, but in the intervening period Trump had won the American election and the United Kingdom had voted to leave the European Union. If the populist tide were rising, Hofer should have been able to overcome his tiny deficit with Van der Bellen and win. Instead, he backslid. It struck me as a potential sign that Trump’s election could represent the crest of the populist movement, rather than the beginning of a nationalist wave: > [@](#): > > Le Pen’s National Front endured another disappointing performance over the weekend in the French legislative elections. Initially polling in the low 20s — close to Le Pen’s share of the vote in the first round of the presidential election — the party declined in polls and turned out to receive only 13 percent of the vote, about the same as their 14 percent in 2012. As a result, National Front will have only a few seats in the French Assembly while Macron’s En Marche! — which ran jointly with another centrist party — will have a supermajority. > [@](#): > > UKIP’s collapse in some ways makes May’s performance even harder to excuse. Most of the UKIP vote went to the Conservatives, providing them with a boost in constituencies where UKIP had run well in 2015. But the Conservatives lost votes on net to Labour (although there was movement in both directions), Liberal Democrats and other parties. It’s perhaps noteworthy that Conservatives performed especially poorly in London after Trump criticized London Mayor (and Labour Party member) Sadiq Khan, losing wealthy constituencies such as Kensington that had voted Conservative for decades. Mind you, it looks a lot like what I see in the USA, IMHO a lot of the extreme right wingers in power are the ones that are in the position that many Republicans in power were in the prohibition and “let the people eat cake” of the 1920’s era. They were then also lousy with power but it was actually close to collapsing for the reason that in reality a lot of the people were not really in favor of their remedies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/266 "2017-06-18T19:28:35Z")
While I don’t believe that Republicans and conservatives are evil and/or hateful people, for the most part, I wonder and worry that trying to convince liberals, Democrats, and moderates that they are, in the same way that Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Brietbart News, Trump, and others try to convince conservatives (pretty successfully, apparently) that liberals and Democrats are evil/hateful/unAmerican/anti-freedom/etc. might be the only winning political strategy. If so, that’s a damn shame, but I’m not sure if being “pure” and reasonable would be worth Trumpian rule for years and years, if the above strategy is the only way to win. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/267 "2017-06-18T19:32:30Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > And Donald Trump is already now, less than 6 months in office, facing obstruction of justice charges. Facing charges? Brought by whom, in which jurisdiction? Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/268 "2017-06-18T19:34:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > One thing that keeps the two sides apart is the need to exaggerate, often grossly, the position of the other side. That was an excellent example you gave. I think you hit the nail on the head! That post was purely illustrative of that tendency, right? Lets see you do better. Re-write it to express your views. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/269 "2017-06-18T19:50:14Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Facing charges? Brought by whom, in which jurisdiction? Cite, please. Well, not in the legal sense – not yet. But all the signs are present that any investigation by Mueller or anyone else could go in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/270 "2017-06-18T20:52:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just a nitpick here. Remember, that fairly applies to almost all the Republicans **in power**. Many Republicans actually **do** think that something should be done about the issue and there are many places were compromise is possible, of course IMHO most republicans out of power **still** need to learn that the ones in power are not doing even an iota of what they want to do. I agree that there are reasonable Republicans with at least passably realistic views on climate change, but there are very very few of them and they align themselves with science at their peril. The majority that infest the House and the Senate are the types who either totally ignore the issue or deny it outright (e.g.- Rep. Joe Barton, or Sen. James Inhofe) and go so far as to use their authority to harass and threaten climate scientists for publishing information that they don’t want their constituents to hear. Jon Huntsman certain endorsed policies consistent with scientific evidence on climate change, and how far did he get in his quest for the nomination? In fact, as soon as he publicly stated that he endorsed the scientific view on anthropogenic climate change, Rush Limbaugh accurately predicted, and I quote: “Bye, bye, nomination!”. To be a Republican, apparently, you are _ **required** _ to lie. Another example is Ben Sasse, a bright young Republican senator who I disagree with on many issues but who is eloquent and intelligent – the sort of guy you can’t help but like. Questioned on climate change, he said he believed that fossil fuels adding carbon to the atmosphere was a significant contributor. Questioned further (in an interview with Bill Maher a couple of weeks ago) he admitted that he did not consider it a problem and, with respect to policy, it essentially was not even on his radar. If someone as smart and well-informed as Sasse has to take this position to be an electable Republican, what position do you suppose the average Republican troglodyte like Scott Pruitt or Rick Perry is going to take? That’s a rhetorical question – we know the answer: pure, ignorant, dangerous denialism. I note in passing that **HurricaneDitka** is following his usual policy of not responding to [posts that he apparently finds difficult to handwave away](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20287121&postcount=255). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/271 "2017-06-18T21:02:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I note in passing that **HurricaneDitka** is following his usual policy of not responding to [posts that he apparently finds difficult to handwave away](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20287121&postcount=255). I’ve got a shitload of posts to answer, and a real life to lead off of the SDMB, so you’ll please pardon me if I’m not responding to everyone in as timely a manner as you’d like. Perhaps I’ll institute a personal rule of starting with the most polite posters and working my way down to the rudest ones. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/272 "2017-06-18T21:06:42Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I agree that there are reasonable Republicans with at least passably realistic views on climate change, but there are very very few of them and they align themselves with science at their peril. The majority that infest the House and the Senate are the types who either totally ignore the issue or deny it outright (e.g.- Rep. Joe Barton, or Sen. James Inhofe) and go so far as to use their authority to harass and threaten climate scientists for publishing information that they don’t want their constituents to hear. Jon Huntsman certain endorsed policies consistent with scientific evidence on climate change, and how far did he get in his quest for the nomination? In fact, as soon as he publicly stated that he endorsed the scientific view on anthropogenic climate change, Rush Limbaugh accurately predicted, and I quote: “Bye, bye, nomination!”. To be a Republican, apparently, you are _ **required** _ to lie. > > Another example is Ben Sasse, a bright young Republican senator who I disagree with on many issues but who is eloquent and intelligent – the sort of guy you can’t help but like. Questioned on climate change, he said he believed that fossil fuels adding carbon to the atmosphere was a significant contributor. Questioned further (in an interview with Bill Maher a couple of weeks ago) he admitted that he did not consider it a problem and, with respect to policy, it essentially was not even on his radar. If someone as smart and well-informed as Sasse has to take this position to be an electable Republican, what position do you suppose the average Republican troglodyte like Scott Pruitt or Rick Perry is going to take? That’s a rhetorical question – we know the answer: pure, ignorant, dangerous denialism. Well, of course, but the general point I’m making is that when more than 60% of the people are disapproving of Trump in one of the latest polls, I do think that (as I pointed out in many past political threads) while a lot of Republicans are like that, we only need a few that do appreciate reason and science to join us. Remember, we only need a few percentage points to change a lot of the races in the USA. And what I do think many right wingers that support Trump are denying now is that they are losing the support of many independents and even moderate Republicans. It will still take a while, but I do think that a significant number of Republicans will realize that they should not vote for the current crop of the deniers of reason in power. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/273 "2017-06-18T21:19:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The cite also mentioned Europe, and Trump implied that what Europe needed to do was just as what South Korea and Japan should do. > > In any case Trump was not shy to later point out that Europe should spent more on their defense capabilities. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/02/03/europe-may-not-be-able-to-expand-its-defenses-like-president-trump-wants/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/02/03/europe-may-not-be-able-to-expand-its-defenses-like-president-trump-wants/) Trump wants NATO (and presumably South Korea and Japan) to spend more / take a bigger role in their own defense, and perhaps to pay the US for the role we play in their defense. None of that has anything to do with my post that you were theoretically trying to respond to, which I’ll repeat here again for you: > [@constanze](#): > > There is a fact underneath: with Trump being completly unreliable, it would be a good idea to step up NATO funds. Only, there are practical problems in real-life: some NATO members are autocracies that democratic countries don’t really want to arm. Some are enemies, like Turkey and Greece, heating up, so more arms are dangerous. And with dozens of countries, every country buying more of their own makes for hundreds of different types of rifles, tanks, planes, which makes repairs and coordination very more expensive than standardized units. Plus, you don’t order 10 tanks from the Factory. You develop one that’s good, only that can take 20 years, and everything has changed, so you ordered 10 tanks for millions of Euros that are now obsolete. Worse with planes with so much computers inside. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > AFAIK, no one, not even Donald Trump, has suggested that every European country needs to build up _their own_ domestic arms industry. We would generally like them to buy more F-35’s (or Typhoons), not try to design and manufacture their own. Do you understand how “Trump wants South Korea to pay the USA for stationing troops there” is nothing like a rebuttal to ‘we don’t want European countries to design and manufacture their own tanks and jets’? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > BTW as I mentioned in my post I clarified that how “wrong” you were included the climate change part. As I said, deal with it. Well that’s good, because it sure as hell didn’t include the part about every European country designing and building their own tanks / jets. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have seen scientists like Lovelock to harp about that, but of course he is not taken seriously by many other scientists. I don’t know who Lovelock is, but that doesn’t sound like a ‘climate model’, with “error bars”. Does Lovelock have an actual ‘model’ / projection that would support k9bfriender’s claim (again, quoted below for clarity)? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > The kill us all, and the kill nearly all of us are well within the error bars of future climate modeling. You seem like it’s really important to you personally to be able to say “you are wrong”. I asked for a cite. I don’t think your post really is one, at least by the usual definition, so I guess I’m still waiting. As far as the bit about every European country building their own tank and fighter jet, you haven’t proven that either, so I guess I’m still waiting on both counts. By all means though, carry on with your ‘you were wrong, deal with it’ nonsense. Very convincing stuff. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/274 "2017-06-18T21:27:48Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Would you mind explaining why you are optimistic that your healthcare bills will decrease? Preferably with an explanation of what specific policy change you think will be enacted, and how that would lead to your desired outcome? I’d be delighted to do so, once I’m off **wolfpup** ’s clock, but I already feel bad that my simple point about **begbert2** ’s silliness has hijacked \*\*John Mace’\*\*s nice thread about political civility into another climate change debate. If you’d like to start a thread dedicated to the ACA and AHCA, I’ll try to join and comment, or when I get a few minutes to write a decent OP, I’ll start one. Let’s take this discussion there, if you don’t mind. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > … human extinction due to climate change has occurred in the past … Is this a typo? Or are you using some other definition of ‘extinction’ than the one I’m familiar with? I’m confused, but feeling strangely lucky to be in existence still. Could you elaborate on this point? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/275 "2017-06-18T21:30:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d be delighted to do so, once I’m off **wolfpup** ’s clock, but I already feel bad that my simple point about **begbert2** ’s silliness has hijacked \*\*John Mace’\*\*s nice thread about political civility I asked Mr. Mace to write his own version of the list above to educate us, but he has so far not done so. How about you? Can you manage a ‘civil’ version of that list? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/276 "2017-06-18T21:32:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you understand how “Trump wants South Korea to pay the USA for stationing troops there” is nothing like a rebuttal to ‘we don’t want European countries to design and manufacture their own tanks and jets’? > > Well that’s good, because it sure as hell didn’t include the part about every European country designing and building their own tanks / jets. It is a bit like a distinction with not much difference, when Trump tells others that they will not get any more weapons unless they pay, the logical solution is to get them elsewhere or to develop their own; and the Europeans are not too bad at that. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know who Lovelock is, but that doesn’t sound like a ‘climate model’, with “error bars”. Does Lovelock have an actual ‘model’ / projection that would support k9bfriender’s claim (again, quoted below for clarity)? > > You seem like it’s really important to you personally to be able to say “you are wrong”. I asked for a cite. I don’t think your post really is one, at least by the usual definition, so I guess I’m still waiting. As far as the bit about every European country building their own tank and fighter jet, you haven’t proven that either, so I guess I’m still waiting on both counts. Again I think you are only trying to deny that Trump did tell to Japan and Korea to do that regarding nuclear weapons, that is indeed their own weaponry, while talking about Europe too, I do not think that was just about their nuclear arsenal anyhow. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > By all means though, carry on with your ‘you were wrong, deal with it’ nonsense. Very convincing stuff. :rolleyes: Nope, the one with no evidence to counter is you. You are only reduced to nitpick away, not to deal with how Trump did indeed demand others to do more, not just with money. And in the climate issue you are still wrong when going about goose chases. \*\*I’m not the one making the point that the entire world will end. \*\* Only that it is unlikely but that it is really foolish to listen to the ones out there that propose that we should ignore that still possible if unlikely result. In the meantime, the most likely results that we will get for doing nothing as Trump and minions want will not be a pick nick at all. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/277 "2017-06-18T21:32:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is this a typo? Or are you using some other definition of ‘extinction’ than the one I’m familiar with? I’m confused, but feeling strangely lucky to be in existence still. Could you elaborate on this point? Yep, that’s a typo. Sorry to hijack, I just think it’s an interesting subject, and one I don’t know a lot about. Apparently there’s a great ‘‘[Science Vs.](https://gimletmedia.com/climatechange)’’ podcast on climate change my husband recommended me, which ultimately comes to the conclusion that climate change is a huge problem but also the potential ramifications are overblown. So a nice, moderate outlook, apparently. I haven’t heard it but I wholeheartedly recommend anything coming from Gimlet Media. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/278 "2017-06-18T21:51:54Z")
And while I’m not the one proposing the end of the world scenario, the fact was indeed there are scientists that talked about that possibility. As mentioned, me and the experts out there do not take him much seriously. But I have to point here that it is really hard to take seriously anyone that discusses about this issue and does not know who James Lovelock is. > **[RealClimate: James Lovelock’s Gloomy Vision](https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/02/james-lovelocks-gloomy-vision/)** > > RealClimate: James Lovelock, renegade Earth scientist and creator of the Gaia hypothesis, has written a gloomy new book called “Revenge of Gaia”, in which he argues that we should be stashing survival manuals, printed on good old-fashioned paper, in... > [@](#): > > James Lovelock, renegade Earth scientist and creator of the Gaia hypothesis, has written a gloomy new book called “Revenge of Gaia”, in which he argues that we should be stashing survival manuals, printed on good old-fashioned paper, in the Arctic where the last few breeding pairs of humans will likely be found after a coming climate catastrophe. The book is not published in the U.S. yet, but it is available from [amazon.co.uk](http://amazon.co.uk). Lovelock has never been one to shrink from a bold vision. What is it he sees now? > [@](#): > > The Earth has existed in hot-house configuration before, and contrary to Lovelock’s vision, I don’t know of anything intrinsic to the hot-house Earth which would preclude human life. The transition from present-day climate to a radically new climate could be catastrophic from the point of view of human civilization however, especially given that Earth is loaded with so many people already. Past climate transitions often drove extinctions and eventually new speciation. Past societies, such as the Classic Mayans, apparently vanished from the face of the earth, leaving behind mute relics of past social structure. These societal collapses were regional, often triggered by regional climate changes. The world today is globalized to an extent that was never a factor in the past, and climate is poised to change in a global way such as civilized humanity has not before witnessed. > > We should be very clear. No one, not Lovelock or anyone else, has proposed a specific, quantitative scenario for a climate-driven, all out, blow the doors off, civilization ending catastrophe. Mr. Lovelock has a feeling in his gut that something terrible is going to happen. He could be right, but for what it’s worth, there aren’t any models that explode as catastrophically as this. We can never say that it’s impossible that something might fall out of balance, something we haven’t thought of. But I think in general the consensus gut feeling among small-minded working scientists like me is that the odds of such a catastrophe are low. > > Low odds of catastrophe does not imply negligible. Nordhaus [2001] considered the possibility of catastrophe in his analysis of the economics of climate change. He defined catastrophe as comparable to the Great Depression, a 25% decrease in global economic activity that lasts for a long time. I still remember how Nordhaus pointed that trillions would be lost by not dealing with the issue now. As he told us “for less than that nations have gone to war” And that IMHO is one big reason why while I do not think that global warming will cause the end of our civilization by itself, the problem is that I do not have much hope that humans will not fall for xenophobia and hatred when people will move around the globe to avoid things like the rise of the oceans. And while in a possible future we could talk about how global war was the reason for the practical end of our civilization it would be really bad to forget what was one of the main reasons why we came to that. No Mr. Trump, what you did was still penny wise but pound foolish. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/279 "2017-06-18T21:57:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ve got a shitload of posts to answer, and a real life to lead off of the SDMB, so you’ll please pardon me if I’m not responding to everyone in as timely a manner as you’d like. Perhaps I’ll institute a personal rule of starting with the most polite posters and working my way down to the rudest ones. 😉 That’s cool. And it works well for you, too, since the most polite posts tend to be the least argumentative and the easiest to respond to. But I also note in passing that “politeness” consists of more than just language use. It more fundamentally consists in acknowledging the facts of an opponent’s argument, such as the fact that if 148 of the parties to the Paris accord that include the world’s major industrialized nations have all ratified it, and the Republican-dominated senate in the US would never do so, then it’s at least highly plausible that the problem is not in the accord, but in the ideology of the Republicans. Another aspect of politeness is that if an opponent requests “And kindly don’t remind me that I’m being mean to Republicans. If you want to respond constructively, please start by addressing the facts.” that one respects the opponent’s wish to discuss material facts rather than etiquette. But you are of course at liberty to proceed as you wish. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/280 "2017-06-18T22:02:51Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Yep, that’s a typo. > > Sorry to hijack, I just think it’s an interesting subject, and one I don’t know a lot about. Apparently there’s a great ‘‘[Science Vs.](https://gimletmedia.com/climatechange)’’ podcast on climate change my husband recommended me, which ultimately comes to the conclusion that climate change is a huge problem but also the potential ramifications are overblown. So a nice, moderate outlook, apparently. I haven’t heard it but I wholeheartedly recommend anything coming from Gimlet Media. Thanks. I’ll check out the podcast. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=15)