# "How Did We Become Bitter Political Enemies?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112 "2017-06-16T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/21 "2017-06-16T14:50:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > That’s a nice thought, but that’s basically accepting a false equivalency, and I’m done with that. What I will do is have a reasonable conversation with people who seem reasonable, and fortunately, there actually are reasonable republicans and right-leaning independents left. They’re vanishing but they still exist. But that’s about the best I can do. I’m not going to argue with them; I’ll just ignore them. I won’t ignore their bullshit but just like when I see people posting rubbish here, I don’t respond to it. Why waste my time arguing with someone who believes that the world is flat? Time is a precious commodity and I’m not going to waste it on people who enter into a “debate” disingenuously. No, it’s not setting up a false equivalency. It’s saying it does’t matter who started it or who is worse. If that’s important to you, then the division won’t get any better. If you can’t be the solution, you can’t expect anyone else to be. Having said that, I don’t see that you’re advocating name calling and ridiculing, so in that sense you do agree with me. I think. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/22 "2017-06-16T14:55:38Z")
Can somebody do me a favor and objectively state the problem and what the negative outcomes will be? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/23 "2017-06-16T15:32:20Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Can somebody do me a favor and objectively state the problem and what the negative outcomes will be? 1. If one side / Party is calling the other side regularly and often enough to believe it themselves “evil” “the root of all that’s wrong with this Country” “they want to destory our Country” and so on - then compromise becomes impossible, because how can you work together with somebody who’s so evil? But without compromise, Democracy doesn’t work either. You end up with authocracy: one side has The Truth and the Only Solution to All Problems and will implemement it because they are Good and Light; the other side is Evil, their solution will destroy the Country because it’s wrong, and they must be stopped at all costs. It doesn’t take Long before the wrong side Ends up in disenfranchised or in prison since they are so dangerous. That this solution was suggested by Plato in his On State doesn’t make it any better: it’s still wrong, no matter how old or how often practised. 1. People living in cultural bubbles - made easier with automatic filtering on social media - means that their convictions aren’t challenged. Yes, new ideas and Facts can come in; but for democrats or humanists it’s bad, too, to never get a different opinion because everybody agrees and the social pressure against anybody who says sth. different is too big. Sharpening iron with iron is when you have intelligent People with well-researched opinions doing an friendly discussion, where all have Facts (and cites) and don’t allege that the other side is in favour of kitten-burning because of their different opinion. This style of serious (academic) discussion of Facts can sharpen your own understanding and improve your own arguments and Solutions. This gets lost if the other side is simply dumb and evil. It doesn’t help that the loudest on both sides have the dumbest arguments, and that the media wants shouting instead of discussion for higher rates. It also doesn’t help that a lot of shouting from Side B is reaction to Side A doing something that has consequences in the real world (saying that side B is evil, over and over, until one mentally disturbed White guy picks up his gun and shoots People from Side B). 1. Tribal Affiliation feels good -humans want to belong in a Group. But if knee-jerk Affiliation goes before and above actual Facts and common sense, and politicans are willing to let their Country grind to a halt (like the Budget crisis a few years ago) in order to get their own Agenda - then Democracy stops working. People have to agree to Play by the rules. If one kid kicks over the board when he’s about to loose, you can’t Play anymore. In real life, you’d ban that kid, but that doesn’t work with political parties where too many voters agree with this behaviour as Long as only their side is doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/24 "2017-06-16T15:32:28Z")
The problem is that we are learning to hate each other. Hatred is bad. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/25 "2017-06-16T15:36:48Z")
It is inevitable, and pointed out already, not something new. Political power arises from extremism in the sense of framing arguments in black and white and associating trust with those who tolerate no shades of gray. I don’t believe all people take are unable to accept compromise, but in our system there is rarely that choice, we are given binary choices, parties and candidates who are entirely for or against some issue or policy and then frame themselves as good and their opponents as bad. This spills over into society as a whole, framing culture in the same way, limiting discourse to the same extremes so that many people have no concept of the middle at all because it is not seen. It has rarely been different in the world, we see it more because we have the freedom to have such opposing sides fight it out with words instead of swords, but there will always be those who cannot accept debate and must have their way at any cost. Their actions only lead the other side to place blame on the group and not the individual, and those that are blamed take umbrage and turn a deaf ear. It is this incessant pushing and pulling at the pendulum that makes it swing so far to either side. Some of this is also due to stability oddly enough. There have been the threads about the diminishing of decade identity in the 21st century, we clearly identify periods like the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s even if they don’t align numerically with the years, but the 90s onward have less distinction. The world is not changing rapidly in the same ways it has in the past with punctuated events. We now expect technological advances to continue at a steady pace, we haven’t had huge changes to the framework of our world, their have been no recent revolutions, no transformations from horse and buggies to automobiles, no civil war or world war, we have recessions instead of great depressions, everyone ostensibly has the right to vote. The norm is to consider the world to be largely static and refine it to our tastes, the great changes in the world that allow people to leave the past behind are rarely the specific goals of politics, we may recognize the need for progress and even promote the concept in general but the break-throughs that change the world are effected more by the individual, the inventors, the explorers, the dreamers, who produce what most do not imagine in real terms. Hopefully the next great change comes from a new beneficial innovation and is not forced on us by disaster. In the mean time we’ll have the petty disputes about the trees because we can’t imagine a new forest. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/26 "2017-06-16T15:37:51Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Can somebody do me a favor and objectively state the problem and what the negative outcomes will be? Less cooperation, less compromise, more violence, less longterm planning, more short-term gratification, more stereotyping, more ad hominem, more toxic climate, less empathy, more deception. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/27 "2017-06-16T15:53:29Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > …Further it notes that fewer and fewer of us work with, live near or have family of The Other Party. > > This is crackers, don’t you think? How can we dial all this back a few notches? (post shortened) Because too many people believe that The Other Party consists of people who are assholes, and everything The Other Party says is a lie, and everything The Other Party does is too stoopid to be believed. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/28 "2017-06-16T15:54:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I want to be diplomatic and say that ‘both sides are to blame’ but I honestly don’t feel that way. I don’t mean all people on the right necessarily, but I absolutely blame a lot of right wing influencers in this country for starting a fake culture war in the late 1980s that has become an increasingly real culture war in 2017. Going back to 1992, I remember how shocked Republicans were that a philandering lawyer and governor from the backwoods of Arkansas managed to defeat a former CIA cold warrior and Reagan’s heir apparent. They never got over it. They never got over Hillary Clinton asserting herself and wanting to be more than someone who turns her head and smiles at her husband whenever he speaks. > > The growth of AM radio and cable news pushed blatant lies and attacked not only the Clintons but their supporters. It was guys like Rush Limbaugh who basically started telling millions of listeners that liberals, not just the people we vote for both the voters themselves, are what’s wrong with our society. And with the rise of more talk shows on radio, television, and the internet, there have been other talk show hosts who have tried to out-Limbaugh Limbaugh. They say all sorts of outrageous things to fire up their audience and history has shown that people have a tendency to believe what they hear and see from ‘trusted’ sources. The tone of the rhetoric is vicious and they’ve never really been held to account unless they go so far over the line that advertisers are forced to drop them. It’s no wonder then that someone like Donald Trump felt like he had a shot at being president. When you’ve got Rush Limbaugh calling a birth control advocate a “slut” in front of millions of listeners, really, what is off-limits then? Pretty much nothing. > > Have some progressives responded in kind as of late? Yeah probably so, but they were not the original aggressors. And they’re fed up with having to listen to the outrageous smears and lies of right wing talking heads who question their patriotism, their faith, and their basic decency as people just because they believe that abortion is not necessarily a binary choice and that maybe a tax increase for the richest of people and spending money to help working class people might be good for the country. The real problem has gone well beyond just a matter of saying offensive things on the radio; it has now reached the point where people can’t even have a conversation anymore without getting shouted down – I repeatedly dealt with people like that last year during the campaign and I’ve just decided that I’m not going to talk politics anymore with people I know unless I just want to vent. And it’s sad because I’ve always believed that those conversations, even if they get a little passionate, can be opportunities for people to gain some exposure and awareness. But that’s not likely to happen in today’s climate. And I 100% blame the right wing for that. Hell, it didn’t take long for the usual right wing shitheads to politicize this week’s shooting and blame the rhetoric of the left without any introspection whatsoever – and the sad part is, I didn’t expect anything else. This gets the time period right and nothing else. The trend from the Great Depression and the Great Society was political centralization. Before most governance was at the state level and issues were not nationalized, so you could have Southern Democrats filibustering lynching laws at the same time Northern Democrats were absorbing black voters into their machines. Democrats dominated congress with the Republicans controlling congress for only four years between 1933-1992. This meant for a Republican president to get anything done he had to appeal to the other party. In 1994 Clinton proved so unpopular that the Republicans took control of the congress for the first time since 1955. Since then there have been 13 years of GOP control of congress, 4 years of Democrat control, and 6 years of mixed control. The GOP has been in control of congress and the presidency for 5 years, the Democrats in charge for 2 years and divided government for 16 years. This means if a party wants to enact its agenda the best way is to obstruct while in the minority and wait for their turn in the majority. Since obstruction is easier than enacting an agenda, relatively little of substance has been getting done. Thus each party has to appease its voters with rhetoric instead of policy. Since tribalism is inherent in human nature this has been a winning strategy for politicians. Since a government can not stay better than its people for very long, if we want a better government we have to become a better people. We have to hold our politicians accountable for results and not let ourselves become marks for their rhetoric. People need to reject what-aboutism and partisanship. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/29 "2017-06-16T16:23:24Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t believe all people take are unable to accept compromise, but in our system there is rarely that choice, we are given binary choices, parties and candidates who are entirely for or against some issue or policy and then frame themselves as good and their opponents as bad. Yes: a System more democratic than simple majority would help emphasize the “working together” aspect instead of “right or wrong, left-right side” aspect. > [@](#): > > It has rarely been different in the world, That is not quite true. Many other modern demcracies don’t have only majority voting, but representative voting. Many cultures (not just the Netherlands) have a strong cultural belief in the Need to work together for the benefit of the Country and everybody, not just to help your own Group. Because it’s cultural, it can be changed - in the other direction, too, if there is enough willingness and education. But education and Reform of the election System costs Money and political power, and if one Party is winning with populism, they don’t want a reasonable, educated voter base. > [@](#): > > we see it more because we have the freedom to have such opposing sides fight it out with words instead of swords, but there will always be those who cannot accept debate and must have their way at any cost. The question isn’t that there will always be dumbheads and People who watch Fox News. The question is: does the majority of the Population accept that as normal and ok, or do they relegate the dumbheads to the kiddies Corner and do politics in as reasonable a style as possible? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/30 "2017-06-16T16:31:09Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > That is not quite true. Many other modern demcracies don’t have only majority voting, but representative voting. Many cultures (not just the Netherlands) have a strong cultural belief in the Need to work together for the benefit of the Country and everybody, not just to help your own Group. > > Because it’s cultural, it can be changed - in the other direction, too, if there is enough willingness and education. > > But education and Reform of the election System costs Money and political power, and if one Party is winning with populism, they don’t want a reasonable, educated voter base. It’s a but easier for smaller and more homogeneous countries to achieve. > [@](#): > > The question isn’t that there will always be dumbheads and People who watch Fox News. The question is: does the majority of the Population accept that as normal and ok, or do they relegate the dumbheads to the kiddies Corner and do politics in as reasonable a style as possible? Sadly, I think the majority of the population are dumbheads who belong in the kiddies corner. That’s why the leadership is such a great factor in this problem, the dumbheads are followers. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/31 "2017-06-16T16:32:58Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Do you think it is possible you have been lied to too? Are you so convinced you are right and the other side is wrong? I have, on previous occasions, stated that conservatives are wrong on every important decision that’s been made for the last 160 years. I have also on previous occasions explained why I think that in regards to specifics. Stop talking in vague platitudes. If you want me to respect a conservative position on something, name a specific position and explain why you think that liberals should respect it. Because from where I’m sitting, you’re asking me to be nice to the people who are supporting a Russian agent for president, destroying the social contract and dooming the planet to global warming. And that’s not even mentioning the way Rush and his fellow travelers have been calling me a traitor, a slut, a murderer, and a feminazi for twenty years now. This problem didn’t just start when we liberals finally got fed up. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/32 "2017-06-16T16:39:12Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > I have, on previous occasions, stated that conservatives are wrong on every important decision that’s been made for the last 160 years. I have also on previous occasions explained why I think that in regards to specifics. I am speaking in generalities because the problem is in general. People are shouting in generalities. They are lumping people together with labels and not treating them as people. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/33 "2017-06-16T16:48:40Z")
If the proposed solution were, “Have everyone be more civil and understanding and listen more,” then that would be one thing. But increasingly, ISTM that people are saying, “The solution is for the other side to capitulate, surrender, and cave in.” Even being civil, keeping a calm voice, and not being rude, \*\*\*no longer suffices. \*\*\*Both sides demand that the other side \*cave in \*and abandon their political views. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/34 "2017-06-16T16:59:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If the proposed solution were, “Have everyone be more civil and understanding and listen more,” then that would be one thing. But increasingly, ISTM that people are saying, “The solution is for the other side to capitulate, surrender, and cave in.” Even being civil, keeping a calm voice, and not being rude, \*\*\*no longer suffices. \*\*\*Both sides demand that the other side \*cave in \*and abandon their political views. Worse, they are attacking folks on their side for not being hateful enough toward the perceived enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/35 "2017-06-16T17:17:41Z")
The thing is I lack certainty. I am not sure I am right about many of my political views. I am willing to consider the other side. I do not understand people who are so sure about things. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/36 "2017-06-16T17:25:09Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > … relegate the dumbheads to the kiddies Corner … What does this consist of in your perfect world? Take away their right to vote? Lock them up? Ignore them? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/37 "2017-06-16T17:26:08Z")
Actually, what _I’m_ attacking people for is expecting me to pretend that “Both Sides are Equally to Blame”. It’s simply anti-factual - and I am fucking fed to the teeth with Right-wing anti-factuality. Paul - the instances of Republican malfeasance over the last twenty years have caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, financial disaster, natural disasters, ongoing environmental destruction, the promotion of lies and propaganda, the subversion of our political process, and the spread of open bigotry. These are all actual things that actual Right-wingers have accomplished. There is nothing that compares to this from the Left. Yes. I am angry about it. My _anger_ is not the problem. The _problem_ is that the people who caused all this damage don’t want to apologize or change their behavior. The _problem_ is that the people who are responsible for all this are still doing their damnedest to cause more damage in the name of ever greater tax-cuts for billionaires. Anger is an appropriate response. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/38 "2017-06-16T17:32:50Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Maybe it is healthy. Maybe our politics and nation have evolved to a point where it is literally not in our interests to live with and share our lives with people who hold opposing political perspectives. Is it such a tragedy? if that is the case, yes it is, it is the path to the disintegration of your civil society and becoming like what you have historically called the banana republic. the disollution of the civism and the dissolution of a culture of exchange across the political lines - at least among the centers - is a road to very bad political developments. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/39 "2017-06-16T17:37:36Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Yes. I am angry about it. My _anger_ is not the problem. The _problem_ is that the people who caused all this damage don’t want to apologize or change their behavior. The _problem_ is that the people who are responsible for all this are still doing their damnedest to cause more damage in the name of ever greater tax-cuts for billionaires. > > Anger is an appropriate response. Nothing wrong with being angry. What is wrong is letting anger influence your conduct to the point where it is self-destructive. There is more to being a citizen than venting your spleen. That does not change minds or form the coalitions and human connections needed to govern. You win few partners with anger. And, as unfair as it seems, everyone needs partners to make policy. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/40 "2017-06-16T17:44:47Z")
This is a problem of government expansion. Every time you take an issue or economic activity out of the private sphere and make it the domain of government, you politicise it and force people to argue over it instead of settling it in the marketplace or within their communities. It’s also an issue of federalism. The more you turn to a federal government in an attempt to force your values on everyone instead of just the people in your own community who agree, you create conflict between large groups of people. Add in a 24 hour news cycle, a largely ignorant but highly political news media (on the left and right) who gain ratings when they shout the loudest, social media where people can unleash their worst behavior with little to no consequence (or even to acclaim, if they’re doing it to virtue signal in the presence of fellow travelers), and you have a bloody mess. That said, there seems to be only one side of the political spectrum that is currently calling for the suppression of speech and who is using violence as a tactic to suppress their opposition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=3)