# "How Did We Become Bitter Political Enemies?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112 "2017-06-16T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/441 "2017-06-20T21:37:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > [Pruitt](http://www.factcheck.org/2017/06/scott-pruitt-coal-jobs/) [absolutely](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/06/06/pruitts-claim-that-almost-50000-jobs-have-been-gained-in-coal/?utm_term=.a31738f250ff) [lied](https://thinkprogress.org/epa-chief-exaggerates-coal-job-growth-2ab69ed36b6) [on](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/06/fact-check-epa-administrator-scott-pruitt-coal-jobs/102543930/) [national](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/pruitt-epa-coal-jobs-exaggerate/529311/) [TV.](http://www.newsweek.com/pruitt-coal-jobs-trump-lies-621713) > > Do you have any defense for that? Do you believe that the Chief of the EPA should be responsible for what he says? You’re really focused on this supposed Pruitt lie. I haven’t looked up any of your sources on it yet, but does it really surprise you that a politician would lie? Bill Clinton lied. So did GWB, and Obama. It’d be newsworthy if a politician _didn’t_ lie. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/442 "2017-06-20T21:43:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You’re really focused on this supposed Pruitt lie. I haven’t looked up any of your sources on it yet, but does it really surprise you that a politician would lie? Bill Clinton lied. So did GWB, and Obama. It’d be newsworthy if a politician _didn’t_ lie. Nobody on the planet is surprised when anyone associated with Trump lies. However it’s still bad, as is the reprehensible practice of trying to justify constant lying via false equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/443 "2017-06-20T21:44:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Nobody on the planet is surprised when anyone associated with Trump lies. However it’s still bad, as is the reprehensible practice of trying to justify constant lying via false equivalence. I think it’s a reprehensible practice to try and dismiss the hypocrisy by hand-waving it away with cries of “false equivalence”, but, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/444 "2017-06-20T21:46:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You’re really focused on this supposed Pruitt lie. I haven’t looked up any of your sources on it yet, but does it really surprise you that a politician would lie? Bill Clinton lied. So did GWB, and Obama. It’d be newsworthy if a politician _didn’t_ lie. He is the head of the EPA. That is the United States federal government’s Environmental Protection Agency, and is thus responsible for enforcing the nation’s Clean Air and Clean Water Acts, as well as numerous other environmental statutes. His lies are indeed consequential for the issue at hand and against what the EPA mission is about. **History has show that while a politician appoints him or her the duties of the position go beyond politics.** It is when the heads show themselves to be playing with the facts that then trouble happens and it will not be a happy time for the head of the EPA, just ask the mother of Judge Gorshuch. > **[Anne Gorsuch Burford](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Gorsuch_Burford)** > > Anne Irene McGill Gorsuch Burford (/ˈɡɔːrsʌtʃ/ GOR-sutch; April 21, 1942 – July 18, 2004), also known as Anne M. Gorsuch, was an American attorney and politician. Between 1981 and 1983, while known as Anne M. Gorsuch, she served under President Ronald Reagan as the first female Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Her son is sitting Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States Neil Gorsuch. > Born Anne Irene McGill in Casper, Wyoming, Gorsuch grew up in Denver... ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/445 "2017-06-20T21:51:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > [Pruitt](http://www.factcheck.org/2017/06/scott-pruitt-coal-jobs/) [absolutely](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/06/06/pruitts-claim-that-almost-50000-jobs-have-been-gained-in-coal/?utm_term=.a31738f250ff) [lied](https://thinkprogress.org/epa-chief-exaggerates-coal-job-growth-2ab69ed36b6) [on](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/06/fact-check-epa-administrator-scott-pruitt-coal-jobs/102543930/) [national](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/pruitt-epa-coal-jobs-exaggerate/529311/) [TV.](http://www.newsweek.com/pruitt-coal-jobs-trump-lies-621713) > > Do you have any defense for that? Do you believe that the Chief of the EPA should be responsible for what he says? Of course **doorhinge** is still clueless about why what he did was a logical fallacy. As noted before, the whole sketch by Oliver was under the threat of a lawsuit from the assholes at the coal company. He had to be very accurate besides being funny. And I had indeed checked before hand about how Factcheck did call what Pruitt said a falsehood. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/446 "2017-06-20T22:15:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’s a reprehensible practice to try and dismiss the hypocrisy by hand-waving it away with cries of “false equivalence”, but, whatever. No, seriously. What you did was to straight-up say that it doesn’t matter when any politician lies. At what point is that a legitimate approach, argumentative or otherwise? Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that every human has lied at some point. I’m going to include newborn babies for the sake of completeness. Does that make lying okay? Does that mean that all people lie the same amount? Does that mean that all lies are equally important? Equally unimportant? Should we all be perfectly okay with politicians feeding us bullshit, just because allegedly all politicians have at some point lie? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/447 "2017-06-20T22:21:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No, seriously. What you did was to straight-up say that it doesn’t matter when any politician lies. At what point is that a legitimate approach, argumentative or otherwise? > > Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that every human has lied at some point. I’m going to include newborn babies for the sake of completeness. Does that make lying okay? Does that mean that all people lie the same amount? Does that mean that all lies are equally important? Equally unimportant? Should we all be perfectly okay with politicians feeding us bullshit, just because allegedly all politicians have at some point lie? No, I did _not_ “straight-up say that it doesn’t matter when any politician lies.” I said it does not _surprise_ me when they lie, because it’s so common. Is there some part of my post #439 that you interpret to mean ‘lying is ok’ or passing any moral judgement for or against it at all? If so, where? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/448 "2017-06-20T22:29:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > OK, educate me. How much do they pay? What would a fair market price be? Where did you learn the truth? Where can I learn the truth? I’ll try to get back to you on that. Back in 2007-8, there was quite a bit of talk about the gas leasing systems, and how they were very heavily subsidized, in that getting the oil lease from a BLM was generally less than 10% of what you would get from a private owner, but I will need to try to find this stuff from years ago. Maybe there is even more updated info, I’ll look into when I get some time. (heh.) But, we’ll start with: I am pretty sure that oil and gas drilling gets a much better deal when they lease from govt lands than when they do from private land owners, and to me, that’s a subsidy. Tell ya what, give the land back to the tribes that have claim to it, then see if they would like to lease it for development. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You’re really focused on this supposed Pruitt lie. I haven’t looked up any of your sources on it yet, but does it really surprise you that a politician would lie? Bill Clinton lied. So did GWB, and Obama. It’d be newsworthy if a politician _didn’t_ lie. Not all that focused, just a sidebar with doorhinge about whether facts could be trusted, even if they come from a comedian. But, in any case, you have no problem with that sort of misleading data? There are alot of people in politics that avoid being entirely honest, as that seems to interfere with their job, but telling absolutely blatant lies that can be disproven with only a moment’s research is gotta be some level of concerning, even to those on the same side, right? Most politicos at least try to not get caught in lies, this administration just has one fabrication after another, and they don’t even care how easily disproved it is, because they know that there will remain a base of loyal followers that believe it all, and there will be a base of party devotees that try to defend and create false equivalencies to cover for their lies. ETA: and I don’t have much time, but as it appears you have not actually checked the links, I will point out that Pruitt’s lies were off by more than an order of magnitude. Claiming 50,000 jobs in May, when it is more like 1300 since the beginning of the year. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/449 "2017-06-20T22:30:04Z")
I do recall when Trump arrived in Philly, the temperature was about seventy, sky was clear with a light breeze. And he said “Good morning!”. Which was true. So, there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/450 "2017-06-20T22:38:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Most politicos at least try to not get caught in lies, this administration just has one fabrication after another, and they don’t even care how easily disproved it is, because they know that there will remain a base of loyal followers that believe it all, and there will be a base of party devotees that try to defend and create false equivalencies to cover for their lies. > ETA: and I don’t have much time, but as it appears you have not actually checked the links, I will point out that Pruitt’s lies were off by more than an order of magnitude. Claiming 50,000 jobs in May, when it is more like 1300 since the beginning of the year. Of course, as I like to point out many times in this thread, what supporters of Trump are ignoring is that while there will still be a base of loyal followers, for the purposes of this thread the political enemies are becoming less. Unfortunately for the Trump followers, the consensus that is being reached is not in favor of El Trompo. The lies he and his minions had to say to keep the facade are turning many off. > **[Poll: Trump’s job approval rating drops to 36% | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/20/politics/trump-poll-cbs-russia/index.html)** > > President Donald Trump’s job approval rating has dropped to 36% due to Americans’ negative reaction to his handling of the Russia investigations, a new CBS News poll has found. > [@](#): > > President Donald Trump’s job approval rating has dropped to 36% due to Americans’ negative reaction to his handling of the Russia investigations, a new CBS News poll has found. > > When CBS last polled Trump’s job approval rating in late April, his approval rating was 41%. The drop is partially due to his dwindling support among Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/451 "2017-06-20T22:48:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I did _not_ “straight-up say that it doesn’t matter when any politician lies.” > > I said it does not _surprise_ me when they lie, because it’s so common. Is there some part of my post #439 that you interpret to mean ‘lying is ok’ or passing any moral judgement for or against it at all? If so, where? The entirety of the post. Because if not, what on earth were you trying to say? You were either trying to dismiss the lying as being of no importance, or you were doing a statistically improbable job of assembling what looked like a coherent sentence by randomly striking keys. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/452 "2017-06-20T22:53:35Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > HAHA! I would say the opposite. > > Society falls apart when empires have the time, means and luxury to plant frigging trees they arn’t even going to use. So, you can’t see what the proverb is saying. :smack: It’s about planning for the future. Even if you won’t be the one enjoying it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/453 "2017-06-20T22:56:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The entirety of the post. Because if not, what on earth were you trying to say? You were either trying to dismiss the lying as being of no importance, or you were doing a statistically improbable job of assembling what looked like a coherent sentence by randomly striking keys. In the future, if you’re going to _infer_ something from one of my posts, I’d kindly ask you to not characterize it as “What you did was to straight-up say that”. Fair enough? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/454 "2017-06-20T23:09:00Z")
And one subsidy for the fossil fuel industry that is not frequently talked about, at least not in that context, is the fact that we let them borrow the army on occasion. Seriously, we’re giving billions to people who hate us to, if not destroy the planet, at least to despoil significant chunks of it. Even for people with no brains, moving beyond that should be a no-brainer. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/455 "2017-06-20T23:12:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In the future, if you’re going to _infer_ something from one of my posts, I’d kindly ask you to not characterize it as “What you did was to straight-up say that”. Fair enough? I’ll make an effort to remember. And I’ll also note that you don’t seem to have an answer to “Because if not, what on earth were you trying to say?” - meaning that I was probably doing a straight-up awesome job of interpreting your inference. Though there’s also a distinct possibility that instead of meaning “It’s super-okay when all politicians lie”, which would be the straight interpretation of what you wrote, that instead the actual inference you intended to imply was “It’s super-okay when MY politicians lie.” It’s my understanding that many people who are willing to tolerate the lies of the politicians who are nominally on their side, even if they tell hundreds of lies in rapid succession, while being vigorously opposed to each and every lie (and alleged lie) spoken by their political enemies. Regardless of the impact and importance of the subject being lied about. This approach is really, really partisan, of course. Regardless of which side is doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/456 "2017-06-20T23:23:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This is probably a topic for another thread, but if you’re right, what’s the fix? Would you support an undemocratic solution? Donald Trump was an undemocratic outcome. Remember that millions more voted against him than for him. Our constitution prescribes a non-democratic method of selecting the President. Fortunately, there’s also a non-democratic way to get rid of him: impeachment and conviction by trial. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/457 "2017-06-20T23:25:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But, in any case, you have no problem with that sort of misleading data? There are alot of people in politics that avoid being entirely honest, as that seems to interfere with their job, but telling absolutely blatant lies that can be disproven with only a moment’s research is gotta be some level of concerning, even to those on the same side, right? I do have a problem with all sorts of lying. Not a fan, but this doesn’t strike me as particularly significant. It looks to me like he flubbed a talking point, that was, itself - as is typical of talking points - some pretty heavy spin. For comparison, I don’t see it as much worse than what the VA Governor did after the assassination attempt in Alexandria. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/458 "2017-06-20T23:29:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Donald Trump was an undemocratic outcome. Remember that millions more voted against him than for him. Our constitution prescribes a non-democratic method of selecting the President. > > Fortunately, there’s also a non-democratic way to get rid of him: impeachment and conviction by trial. I’d say that it’s a democratic outcome at a different level of granularity (states / individual Congressional districts) than you’d prefer (national popular vote). That does not, in my mind, transform it into something truly un-democratic like a violent coup or re-instituting a monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/459 "2017-06-20T23:46:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I do have a problem with all sorts of lying. Not a fan, but this doesn’t strike me as particularly significant. It looks to me like he flubbed a talking point, that was, itself - as is typical of talking points - some pretty heavy spin. > > For comparison, I don’t see it as much worse than what the VA Governor did after the assassination attempt in Alexandria. YMMV. Regarding the issue, more significant then are his 3 or more lies that Pruitt makes about CO2 in very quick succession: > **[EPA chief Scott Pruitt says carbon dioxide is not a primary contributor to...](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/09/epa-chief-scott-pruitt.html)** > > Scott Pruitt says precisely measuring human activity on the climate is challenging. > [@](#): > > “I think that measuring with precision human activity on the climate is something very challenging to do and there’s tremendous disagreement about the degree of impact, so no, I would not agree that it’s a primary contributor to the global warming that we see,” he told CNBC’s “Squawk Box.” > > “But we don’t know that yet. … We need to continue the debate and continue the review and the analysis.” > [@](#): > > The statement contradicts the public stance of the agency Pruitt leads. The EPA’s webpage on the causes of climate change states, “Carbon dioxide is the primary greenhouse gas that is contributing to recent climate change.” > > Pruitt’s view is also at odds with the conclusion of NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. > > “The planet’s average surface temperature has risen about 2.0 degrees Fahrenheit (1.1 degrees Celsius) since the late 19th century, a change driven largely by increased carbon dioxide and other human-made emissions into the atmosphere,” NASA and NOAA said in January. > > Sen. Brian Schatz, D-Hawaii, co-chair of the Senate Climate Action Task Force, slammed Pruitt for his comments, calling his views “extreme” and “irresponsible.” > > “Anyone who denies over a century’s worth of established science and basic facts is unqualified to be the administrator of the EPA. Now more than ever, the Senate needs to stand up to Scott Pruitt and his dangerous views,” he said in a statement. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/460 "2017-06-20T23:57:47Z")
> [@](#): > > The statement contradicts the public stance of the agency Pruitt leads. The EPA’s webpage on the causes of climate change states, “Carbon dioxide is the primary greenhouse gas that is contributing to recent climate change.” 3,2,1… Until that EPA page gets taken down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=24)