# "How Did We Become Bitter Political Enemies?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112 "2017-06-16T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/521 "2017-06-26T21:31:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Maybe “others” should try reading what I type. Here’s what I wrote, to you, in this same thread, nine days ago: I get it. You voted for a guy who didn’t even make your top 100 list. I suspect you know he’s neither intellectually nor temperamentally fit for the position, and never will be. You may even be more than a little embarrassed by him from time to time. But that hasn’t kept you from enjoying the schadenfreude at the expense of liberals. With a cherry on top. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/522 "2017-06-26T21:32:56Z")
Doesn’t say a lot about a person’s character when their primary source of amusement is seeing other people suffer or be annoyed. I’m not trying to insult you here, I’m wondering why this would be something to crow about. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/523 "2017-06-26T21:39:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Except that historically, improving the economy has been the result of sound, informed governance. This sounds like a claim crying out for a cite. Do you have one? > [@wolfpup](#): > > And “border security” is largely a mythology … Meaning that we don’t actually, in practice, enforce our borders and immigration laws effectively, or meaning that the entire _concept_ of enforcing our borders and immigration laws is somehow ‘a mythology’? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/524 "2017-06-26T21:41:44Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > … their primary source of amusement … And who do you believe has that as their ‘primary source of amusement’? Me? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/525 "2017-06-26T21:42:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I get it. I’m not at all convinced that you do, because you have returned to the same false claim about my motivations that I debunked a little over a week ago. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/526 "2017-06-26T21:47:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not at all convinced that you do, because you have returned to the same false claim about my motivations that I debunked a little over a week ago. Perhaps you and I have different working definitions of, ‘schadenfreude’ and, ‘cherry on top’. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/527 "2017-06-26T21:52:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Perhaps you and I have different working definitions of, ‘schadenfreude’ and, ‘cherry on top’. I suspect our respective definitions of those words are close enough that it doesn’t matter. The objection I raised was to your mis-characterization of seeing liberal histrionics as “the most important” thing to me. It’s far from it. _Now_ do you get it? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/528 "2017-06-26T22:11:54Z")
Speaking here as the exact type of liberal that gives HurricaneDitka the giggles (that is, I’m moderately annoyed that our current president is a moron), may I ask why we’re collectively trying to get him to admit that he likes the suffering of others better than he likes sex? Even if he DOES spend fifteen hours a day panting heavily to the comments on all websites where sane people gather, 1) he has no reason whatsoever to admit it, and 2) that would mean losing an argument on the internet, which nobody EVER will admit to. So why are we picking at that scab? Is the idea to argue that the reason liberals and conservatives don’t get along is because the conservatives are jackholes who pursue their obviously evil and wrongheaded objectives solely to get under your skin? Because, as irritated as the pursuit their obviously evil and wrongheaded objectives makes me, even I don’t believe that irritating us is, generally speaking, a major reason they support these things. Or rather, while I’m sure that there are gobs of sad, pathetic jackholes who do derive most of their amusement in their entertainment-starved lives from the sorrow of liberals, I don’t believe they’d be willing to knowingly do things that they themselves think are stupid and evil to do so. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/529 "2017-06-26T22:15:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Speaking here as the exact type of liberal that gives HurricaneDitka the giggles (that is, I’m moderately annoyed that our current president is a moron), may I ask why we’re collectively trying to get him to admit that he likes the suffering of others better than he likes sex? Even if he DOES spend fifteen hours a day panting heavily to the comments on all websites where sane people gather, 1) he has no reason whatsoever to admit it, and 2) that would mean losing an argument on the internet, which nobody EVER will admit to. So why are we picking at that scab? > > Is the idea to argue that the reason liberals and conservatives don’t get along is because the conservatives are jackholes who pursue their obviously evil and wrongheaded objectives solely to get under your skin? Because, as irritated as the pursuit their obviously evil and wrongheaded objectives makes me, even I don’t believe that irritating us is, generally speaking, a major reason they support these things. Or rather, while I’m sure that there are gobs of sad, pathetic jackholes who do derive most of their amusement in their entertainment-starved lives from the sorrow of liberals, I don’t believe they’d be willing to knowingly do things that they themselves think are stupid and evil to do so. Thanks (I think). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/530 "2017-06-26T22:33:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I suspect our respective definitions of those words are close enough that it doesn’t matter. The objection I raised was to your mis-characterization of seeing liberal histrionics as “the most important” thing to me. It’s far from it. _Now_ do you get it? And yet, here you are, nine days later, still reminding us of the fact that it brings you some small amount of pleasure to see liberals discomfited by someone you helped vote into office. Now, do _you_ get it? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/531 "2017-06-26T22:37:28Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > … I don’t believe they’d be willing to knowingly do things that they themselves think are stupid and evil to do so. Such is the banality of evil. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/532 "2017-06-26T22:41:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And yet, here you are, nine days later, still reminding us of the fact that it brings you some small amount of pleasure to see liberals discomfited by someone you helped vote into office. Now, do _you_ get it? That’s what I don’t get about this point of view: how far would such a desire go? I mean, you know what would piss off most liberals? Reinstituting slavery. Putting Muslims in concentration camps. Passing a federal law requiring gay reparative therapy. I’m sure a good portion of the “all I need are upset libs” would be perfectly happy with all of these, but all of them? Where do they all draw the line? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/533 "2017-06-26T23:01:38Z")
I think this disproportionate focus on the ‘upsetting others’ is a good example of how we came to such bitterness. HD has said, he likes all these substantive things, and this one other thing is also something he likes, but not as much as the others. So what is the focus, that last one. If I want to challenge my positions, I take on the strongest arguments not the weakest ones. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/534 "2017-06-26T23:02:42Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > That’s what I don’t get about this point of view: how far would such a desire go? I mean, you know what would piss off most liberals? Reinstituting slavery. Putting Muslims in concentration camps. Passing a federal law requiring gay reparative therapy. I’m sure a good portion of the “all I need are upset libs” would be perfectly happy with all of these, but all of them? Where do they all draw the line? I would not support any of those things. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/535 "2017-06-26T23:17:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > That’s what I don’t get about this point of view: how far would such a desire go? I mean, you know what would piss off most liberals? Reinstituting slavery. Putting Muslims in concentration camps. Passing a federal law requiring gay reparative therapy. I’m sure a good portion of the “all I need are upset libs” would be perfectly happy with all of these, but all of them? Where do they all draw the line? Well, lets see. Democrats and liberals, especially on this board, consider any and all conservatives/Republicans to be stupid. And if the person is conservative and not stupid, then they are evil. This is accepted without question on this board. The Democrats/liberals, especially on this board, crowed about how Clinton was going to blow out Trump. Threads were started on how the Republicans were going to never, ever win another election again. These threads were taken seriously. And you wonder why someone of a conservative bent would find the Democrat/liberal collective head explosion after Trump won and the Ds got their asses handed to them kinda funny and a bit enjoyable? Is it that hard to understand? Straight Dope Liberal Member: “Clinton is going to kick ass! Ds rule, Rs drool! Trump and Republicans will never win anything ever again! We are the champions! And Republicans are dumbasses! And Evil!” Election happens, Trump wins Straight Dope Liberal Member: “Clinton lost! We are all gonna die! Trump is going to bring back slavery! _The world will melt NEXT YEAR because TRUMP_!” Toss in that Trump voters (note, I didn’t vote for Trump. Or Clinton. I think they both suck) do not think Trumps policies will make the world a worse place and the histrionics seem wildly out of place. Seriously, colleges had fucking cry-ins. How absolutely absurd. Absurd enough that it becomes funny. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/536 "2017-06-26T23:21:22Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Well, lets see. Democrats and liberals, especially on this board, consider any and all conservatives/Republicans to be stupid. And if the person is conservative and not stupid, then they are evil. This is accepted without question on this board. Bullshit. That’s not even true in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/537 "2017-06-26T23:32:10Z")
And it doesn’t really answer my question, either. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/538 "2017-06-26T23:42:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This sounds like a claim crying out for a cite. Do you have one? You want me to provide a cite that sound and informed governance is a good thing, and that putting idiots in charge leads to less than desirable outcomes? I would have thought that would be self-evident, in government as much as in the private sector. One cite being Clinton handing over to GWB a strong and growing economy, and GWB handing over to Obama the worst recession in living memory, a couple of disastrous ruinous wars, and an environmental travesty among other things, all of which Obama had to unwind. But I can do better than citing the self-evidently obvious; I can cite this: [These 5 charts prove that the economy does better under Democratic presidents](http://www.salon.com/2015/12/28/these_5_charts_prove_that_the_economy_does_better_under_democratic_presidents/) > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Meaning that we don’t actually, in practice, enforce our borders and immigration laws effectively, or meaning that the entire _concept_ of enforcing our borders and immigration laws is somehow ‘a mythology’? Meaning that “border security” has generally been handled just fine, with bipartisan support for real issues of border security, especially post-9/11 when it has actually been tinged with considerable paranoia, so that the whole thing is a manufactured issue to appeal to xenophobic bigots; bonus if Republicans can convince gullible rubes that Democrats want unrestricted open borders (Trump’s words). OK, maybe now you’d be willing to [answer my main question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20306203&postcount=517) which is the one about coal. We’ve had dangerous and environmentally damaging products before, like the widespread use of lead and especially tetraethyl lead gasoline. The stuff turned out to be far more dangerous than anyone had previously believed. Do you think we should still be using dangerous toxic products like leaded gasoline and putting our lives and well-being at risk just because some backwards commercial enterprise was sufficiently ill-informed or totally uncaring to make investments in it, putting monetary gains ahead of public health and safety? Then why should we do it for coal? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/539 "2017-06-26T23:47:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Such is the banality of evil. Right, but I refuse to believe that even a small percentage of conservatives _see themselves_ as evil. In fact they see _liberals_ as evil, because we do evil things like disrespecting religion, disrespecting the patriarchy, trying to take their (personally owned!) guns, and supporting them lazy mexicans and criminal black people and satanic muslims and that are trying to come in and take over all our jobs and our legal systems and our country. We’re trying to force women to have sex freely and then force them all to get abortions, just because we like killing babies. We’re trying to take their money and give it to poor people who are only poor because they’re too lazy to go out and get one of the many jobs that mexicans haven’t taken and sick people who are only sick because they aren’t good christians. We’re trying to force them to be charitable, when they’d do it themselves any minute now given the chance, which is an insult. And we’re trying to kill all business because all regulations are just a communist plot to destroy america. Now, I’ll concede that some -but not all- of these beliefs require you to be lacking somewhat in the critical thinking department, particularly if somebody holds them all at once. But not all of these ideas seem inherently stupid at a cursory glance and not all conservatives are morons. (Though I have observed in my private life that otherwise smart conservatives will _become_ stupid, temporarily, while defending ideas such as these. I can actually watch the critical thinking leave them. But it comes back afterwards. You don’t have to be stupid to be a conservative - but it helps to be able to compartmentalize.) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/540 "2017-06-27T02:18:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What is it that makes the coal mining, by your various descriptions, “obsolete” / “utterly unsustainable” / “failing”? My vague understanding is that demand is down, largely thanks to fracking making natural gas so cheap that it’s undercutting coal on price. Yes, industry analysts would confirm your assessment that cheap natural gas as well as reduced renewable energy costs are contributing to the long-term demise of the coal industry, which is happening regardless of any sort of regulatory change. > **[Even ditching the Paris accord won't bring back coal's boom times](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/energy/even-trump-cheerleader-coal-industry-can-only-decline-n767216)** > > Even Trump’s executive order scuttling the EPA’s Clean Power Plan and a pullout from the Paris accord won’t bring back coal’s boom times. There is also the not insignificant problem with coal that it’s dangerous to mine, it pollutes the air and water, the process of mining it literally reshapes the landscape and it contributes to greenhouse gas emissions. [https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/?page=coal\_environment](https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/?page=coal_environment) Not to mention they aren’t making any more of it. So obviously there is interest in finding renewable energy sources that don’t do these things. Coal is relatively cheap, however that is often because without any sort of regulation, coal companies don’t bear the financial costs of the negative impacts of coal. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If / when Trump causes an economic collapses or gets us involved in an “unwinnable military quagmire” we can discuss those things. Do we both agree that Trump has not done either one yet? Clearly you have forgotten the presidency of George W Bush. I suppose the good news is all Trump has to do is not take us into war or ruin the economy and he’ll look like a genius. > [@sleestak](#): > > Well, lets see. Democrats and liberals, especially on this board, consider any and all conservatives/Republicans to be stupid. And if the person is conservative and not stupid, then they are evil. This is accepted without question on this board. I consider myself and independent. I don’t think John McCain is stupid or evil. Sarah Palin is, however, an idiot. I think George W Bush meant well but is of average ability and allowed himself to be unduly influenced. I liked Ronald Reagan Mitt Romney is clearly intelligent and probably not evil, but comes across as very tone-deaf with respect to people who aren’t investment bankers or Bain consultants. My personal take is that the “supidification” of the Republican party happened about 20 years ago when they lost their mind after Bill Clinton got elected. If Republicans and conservatives are characterized as “evil” or “stupid”, it could be for a number of reasons: -Their support of policies that seem to favor the wealthy over the poor and working class -Their support of policies that disregard or actively harm the environment -All conservatives aren’t racists, bigots, homophobes or misogynists, but racists, bigots, homophobes and misogynists always seem to be conservative. -Their seeming indifference to the poor -The constant use of easily verifiable misinformation to support their agenda -Religious fanaticism -Militaristic jingoism I could go on, but I think you get the idea. It leaves an impression that Republicans and Conservatives consist of either a small cadre of wealthy elite who reap the benefits of their policies and a much larger population of middle and working class dupes who support them against what any reasonable person would consider their own interests because they have been fed a line of rah rah Americanistic bullshit. > [@sleestak](#): > > The Democrats/liberals, especially on this board, crowed about how Clinton was going to blow out Trump. Threads were started on how the Republicans were going to never, ever win another election again. These threads were taken seriously. > > And you wonder why someone of a conservative bent would find the Democrat/liberal collective head explosion after Trump won and the Ds got their asses handed to them kinda funny and a bit enjoyable? A lot of moderates and independents also had their heads explode when Trump got elected. Mostly because he represents the worst aspects of pretty much everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=28)