# "How Did We Become Bitter Political Enemies?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112 "2017-06-16T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/621 "2017-07-01T16:56:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > he hasn’t made any disastrous foreign policy blunders Excuse me? Have you seen what he’s done to our traditional alliances? Look especially at that last one. > **[Australians' trust in United States falling](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-21/australians-trust-in-us-falls,-poll-shows/8636174)** > > Australia's trust in the United States has halved since 2011 and Donald Trump is unpopular with 60 per cent of people, but most still think the alliance is important, according to a new poll. > **[Three-quarters of world has little or no confidence in Trump, Pew study finds](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/26/trump-world-global-pew-research-study)** > > Support for US president now below that of George Bush following Iraq invasion, with research showing persistently low ratings for Trump in Europe > **[Poll: Trump Has Hurt America’s Image in the Eyes of the World](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/06/trump-has-hurt-americas-image-in-the-eyes-of-the-world.html)** > > Except in Russia and Israel, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ultimate11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/49beb7/32.png) [@ultimate11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultimate11)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/622 "2017-07-01T16:58:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > Are you familiar at all with Rush Limbaugh? He has been launching molotovs by the dozens on a daily basis for 25 years. No? How about the latest ad by the NRA? The “Molotov” thing was a metaphor. Those incidents were typical verbal ads. I didn’t even get to see those ads until later. The left though has Anti-fascist groups, and from what I saw on TV regarding Berkeley and Oakland (I think), businesses were ruined and people got beaten up. Add on the groups and elites who want the president dead, murdered or impeached now (what happened to just waiting and seeing, then using your opinion as a vote?), and from what I see, democracy is not a thing to the left. It’s an obstacle. I get the whole bitterness, but people shouldn’t commit civil war over democracy. Just look what happened to China in the mid to late 1940s, and the outcome after that! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/623 "2017-07-01T17:19:07Z")
Gotcha. So no comment, **ultimate11** on the rhetoric that has been the stock and trade of right wing talk radio and Fox for the past 25 years demonizing the left? “The groups and elites that want the President dead”? Are you aware at all of the spike of death threats which the previous president faced? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/624 "2017-07-01T17:19:24Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > The left though has Anti-fascist groups, and from what I saw on TV regarding Berkeley and Oakland (I think), businesses were ruined and people got beaten up. Add on the groups and elites who want the president dead, murdered or impeached now (what happened to just waiting and seeing, then using your opinion as a vote?), The alt-right (is that who you are?) keeps trying to make Antifas a thing, but as I’ve said repeatedly, I would bet they have less than 10% name recognition in this country. > [@](#): > > and from what I see, democracy is not a thing to the left. It’s an obstacle. Ok, this is just pure bullshit and doesn’t help your side or anyone. it is a stupidly wrong and inflammatory statement. “The Left” are the people who died as Freedom Riders in the south during the civil rights movement. We’re the people who keep trying to preserve the rights of minorities to vote over the right’s repeated attempts to squash democracy by not allowing their opponents to vote. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/625 "2017-07-01T19:24:53Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Excuse me? Have you seen what he’s done to our traditional alliances? Look especially at that last one. > > [http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-21/australians-trust-in-us-falls,-poll-shows/8636174](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-21/australians-trust-in-us-falls,-poll-shows/8636174) > > [Three-quarters of world has little or no confidence in Trump, Pew study finds | Donald Trump | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/26/trump-world-global-pew-research-study) > > [Trump Has Hurt America’s Image in the Eyes of the World](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/06/trump-has-hurt-americas-image-in-the-eyes-of-the-world.html) Obama was popular in Europe? Big woop. He can go be their President then. The takeaway I got from your cite is that Europe’s attitudes are extremely fickle, and they’ll get over it in 2021 or 2025. This is so far from a “disastrous foreign policy blunder” you couldn’t see it from where you are standing with a telescope. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/626 "2017-07-01T19:27:55Z")
Except that’s deflection from me proving you wrong and it wasn’t only Europe, so you’re being disingenuous in your response. Trump has been a foreign policy disaster and we went from 90-ish percent approval by our traditional allies to sub-20% approval. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/627 "2017-07-01T19:38:01Z")
I’m willing to bet that if our standing had fallen even half this much under Obama, you would have been calling for his removal. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/628 "2017-07-01T19:43:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Obama was popular in Europe? Big woop. He can go be their President then. The takeaway I got from your cite is that Europe’s attitudes are extremely fickle, and they’ll get over it in 2021 or 2025. This is so far from a “disastrous foreign policy blunder” you couldn’t see it from where you are standing with a telescope. “Fickle”. That’s funny. Hey, stupid question, how do you think the US’s relations to Germany would become if they elected someone who was fundamentally incapable of rational politics, diplomacy, or coherent sentences to the highest political office? ---
**Author:** ![ultimate11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/49beb7/32.png) [@ultimate11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultimate11)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/629 "2017-07-01T20:10:13Z")
The quote snipers might not care about the opening and closing of this post, so I’ll just point it out before they start getting to work on this post. > [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > Gotcha. So no comment, **0ultimate11** on the rhetoric that has been the stock and trade of right wing talk radio and Fox for the past 25 years demonizing the left? > > “The groups and elites that want the President dead”? Are you aware at all of the spike of death threats which the previous president faced? And the other 43. But never this aggressively as far as I remember. I don’t recall a photo shoot showing Obama’s head held up ISIS-style. I can’t go heavy on sources right now because I’m on a phone posting right now, but I can tell you the numerous amount of situations alt-left and leftist media outlets (everyone else but fox and Sinclair media outlets, minus WGN-TV at the moment), have demonized the right. I’m not alt-right, I’m more of a guy who believes both sides should get along and actually fix our country to do better. I also voted in the 2016 election and I don’t regret the vote. Yes Clinton didn’t win (that was my vote), but I respect the outcome and I’m pledging support for our current president (verbally, not financially) to improve the country. Go ahead quote snipers, make my day. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/630 "2017-07-01T20:30:53Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > The … day. Opening and closing. Oh yeah, I totally care. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/631 "2017-07-01T20:31:48Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > And the other 43. But never this aggressively as far as I remember. I don’t recall a photo shoot showing Obama’s head held up ISIS-style. No one could possibly make this kind of statement with a straight face. And while you may deny being an alt-righter, your words (alt-left? really?) would seem to indicate otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/632 "2017-07-01T20:31:54Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > The “Molotov” thing was a metaphor. Those incidents were typical verbal ads. I didn’t even get to see those ads until later. > > The left though has Anti-fascist groups, and from what I saw on TV regarding Berkeley and Oakland (I think), businesses were ruined and people got beaten up. Add on the groups and elites who want the president dead, murdered or impeached now (what happened to just waiting and seeing, then using your opinion as a vote?), and from what I see, democracy is not a thing to the left. It’s an obstacle. > > I get the whole bitterness, but people shouldn’t commit civil war over democracy. Just look what happened to China in the mid to late 1940s, and the outcome after that! I don’t deny the existence of an increasingly aggressive fringe left but what you’ve said could absolutely apply to the right wing as well, everything from the shooting of abortion doctors to Trump supporters beating up counter protesters. There was Glenn Beck’s “joke” poisoning of Nancy Pelosi. Democratic politicians being spat on and threatened for supporting…healthcare reform. I could go on. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/633 "2017-07-01T20:44:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Obama was popular in Europe? Big woop. He can go be their President then. The takeaway I got from your cite is that Europe’s attitudes are extremely fickle, and they’ll get over it in 2021 or 2025. This is so far from a “disastrous foreign policy blunder” you couldn’t see it from where you are standing with a telescope. I’d agree that popularity or the lack of it doesn’t really impact our lives noticeably in the short run, as evidenced by the relative normalization of relations between the West after Bush left office. I’d also acknowledge that, declining popularity aside, Trump’s policies haven’t really had a measurable effect either way. We’re still on speaking terms with our allies. I guess we’ll find out how justified our panic about Trump’s foreign policy is once goes ahead with his protectionist policies and initiates a full-on trade war. It’ll also be interesting to see how backing certain horses while abandoning others works out, especially since one of those horses he’s abandoned has a pretty important strategic base of US military operations. Might be one reason why Tillerson and Mattis are publicly contradicting him on everything he’s saying. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/634 "2017-07-01T21:11:01Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > I don’t recall a photo shoot showing Obama’s head held up ISIS-style. What about [with a noose around his neck?](https://images.dailykos.com/images/146717/large/CGStTA8W8AAG_GY.jpg?1433437201) And last time I checked, Kathy Griffin, a D-Lister on par with someone like, say Ted Nugent, isn’t an elected official, like [Charles Wasko.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/charles-wasko-racist-mayor_us_57edf885e4b082aad9ba9f50) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/635 "2017-07-01T22:36:50Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > What about [with a noose around his neck?](https://images.dailykos.com/images/146717/large/CGStTA8W8AAG_GY.jpg?1433437201) > And last time I checked, Kathy Griffin, a D-Lister on par with someone like, say Ted Nugent, isn’t an elected official, like [Charles Wasko.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/charles-wasko-racist-mayor_us_57edf885e4b082aad9ba9f50) Both Ted and Kathy are significantly more prominent than the mayor of some tiny town none of us had ever heard of before. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/636 "2017-07-01T22:51:30Z")
Yes, obviously. Did I imply that he had more renown? ---
**Author:** ![ultimate11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/49beb7/32.png) [@ultimate11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultimate11)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/637 "2017-07-01T23:02:32Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No one could possibly make this kind of statement with a straight face. And while you may deny being an alt-righter, your words (alt-left? really?) would seem to indicate otherwise. Well again, I voted for Clinton. I could have voted for Johnson or Stein, but I doubted that Trump could win. Or at least in Illinois, anyways. I’m an enemy to nobody if we’re getting to the point of the topic. Or at least I don’t want to be an enemy of any side of the political spectrum. I believe we should proceed to better matters than pointless fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/638 "2017-07-01T23:16:01Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [[Donald Trump and the rise of tribal epistemology - Vox](http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/22/14762030/donald-trump-tribal-epistemology)] > > Yeah, it’s a pretty important article. Also, a relevant (and similarly long) [followup by Scott Alexander](http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/01/neutral-vs-conservative-the-eternal-struggle/). Whooooeeeeee. I just spent an hour down the rabbit hole - more like an anthill, actually, with its many long branching tunnels - that is the Slate Star Codex commentariat. Reminded me of the old Dope to the nth degree in a way: digression and granularity are not just tolerated, but pursued with as much passion and energy as the main topic. Anyway. I was looking for insight as to whether the Heterodox/Accuracy in Academia/etc. type of think tanks really do exist to combat bias in academia, or just to encourage conservative bias in hopes it might one day drive out liberal bias. Surprisingly, yet not surprisingly somehow, I never found such insight. ---
**Author:** ![ultimate11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/49beb7/32.png) [@ultimate11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultimate11)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/639 "2017-07-01T23:17:11Z")
What I meant by voting for Clinton was that out of all options in the ballot, I estimated Clinton would win Illinois, so I voted with her on the election. As I said, I’ll accept the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/640 "2017-07-02T02:19:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s the evidence? That liberals really hate him? We’re only six months in, so it’s probably a bit premature to judge his record, but so far the economy seems fine, he hasn’t made any disastrous foreign policy blunders, his agenda is working it’s way through the courts and Congress, albeit rather slowly. He’s not particularly _popular_, but that’s not the same as being “the worst president in history” by any stretch. Fair enough. If we judge him by the economy and any other objective metrics, we it’s too soon to determine. Heck, I keep saying Trump will look like a genius so long as the economy doesn’t collapse and we don’t get into any wars in the next 4 years. But whether that will be because of or in spite of Trump remains to be seen. But he is wildly unpopular and a lot of his unpopularity is not due to simple partisan bias. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=33)