# "How Did We Become Bitter Political Enemies?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112 "2017-06-16T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/641 "2017-07-02T02:25:51Z")
It was the time that a screaming mob chased me up the steps of the state capitol, trying to hit me with huge wooden signs, at the Tennessee tax protests of 2001. That was the same day they threw bricks through the windows of the capitol building in Nashville. I was never so glad to see police cars show up. Anyway, that did it, pretty much. Those protests were one of the main birthplaces of the Tea Party, so there you go. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/642 "2017-07-02T15:51:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s the evidence? That liberals really hate him? We’re only six months in, so it’s probably a bit premature to judge his record, but so far the economy seems fine, he hasn’t made any disastrous foreign policy blunders, his agenda is working it’s way through the courts and Congress, albeit rather slowly. He’s not particularly _popular_, but that’s not the same as being “the worst president in history” by any stretch. GOP controlled congress is putting up guard rails to keep Trump from causing disastrous foreign policy blunders. His agenda is laughable (budget? infrastructure? wall?) and even Mitch wants him to shut the fuck up about repealing the ACA. And the retarded tweeting is certainly not helping him look presidential or likely to improve his approval ratings. Just who is it you’re defending here and at what cost to your own reputation? [Is it this guy?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/07/02/trump-appears-to-promote-violence-against-cnn-with-tweet/?utm_term=.594760de84c7) ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/643 "2017-07-02T16:37:36Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Whooooeeeeee. I just spent an hour down the rabbit hole - more like an anthill, actually, with its many long branching tunnels - that is the Slate Star Codex commentariat. Reminded me of the old Dope to the nth degree in a way: digression and granularity are not just tolerated, but pursued with as much passion and energy as the main topic. > > Anyway. I was looking for insight as to whether the Heterodox/Accuracy in Academia/etc. type of think tanks really do exist to combat bias in academia, or just to encourage conservative bias in hopes it might one day drive out liberal bias. Surprisingly, yet not surprisingly somehow, I never found such insight. Must not have tried too hard regarding Heterodox Academy. On the about page at the website they have a breakdown of the membership. Along with a full list of members. Not too hard to go from there. Additionally, one of the founders is Jonathan Haidt who leaned pretty liberal but now considers himself a centrist. Slee ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/644 "2017-07-03T10:33:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Both Ted and Kathy are significantly more prominent than the mayor of some tiny town none of us had ever heard of before. I’d never heard of Kathy Griffin before her recent moment of notoriety, so she and that mayor were equally well known to me before they attracted Secret Service attention. (Ted Nugent’s a different story. Not sure why anyone still gives him ink, but they do.) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/645 "2017-07-05T08:39:07Z")
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if one is looking for how we became bitter enemies, it may be instructive to take a look at the posts a certain republican made in the Trump Clusterfuck thread in the pit. A few key points: > [@](#): > > Please don’t quote PolitiFacts at me. They are so casually left wing and completely biased and in-accurate in their polls and judgement. You might as well quote CNN… Slagging off not one but two extremely respectable and reliable news agencies in one post, and acting like it’s the most natural thing in the world to not just disregard their analysis and reporting, but to imply that people are crazy for not disregarding them. When asked by multiple posters which sources they use, no response was given. When asked for cites: > [@](#): > > If you are so instilled in your left-wing ideology, there is nothing I can show you now. I’m too drunk. If you are serious, I will try to give cites later. No cites were later given. > [@](#): > > Bill Clinton raped under aged girls on a billionaire’s jet. Does this not bother you? No source was given for this claim. > [@](#): > > Why did I hold my nose and vote for Trump? Because he showed that he wouldn’t bow down and sell middle America out to a bunch of greedy international governments, who gleefully take American money and then stab Americans in the back with trade treaties, bullshit climate treaties, ‘let us give America - the people we hate, but need to defend us - treaties’ and then expect America to have their back … while snickering at all the money they got out of the American government. Because he realizes that ‘climate politics’ is just a way to put money into the pockets of disgustingly arrogant ‘liberal’ bullshit artists. Because he doesn’t actually care about race/creed//sexual orientation , but understands that anyone who wants a job and just wants to support his/her family and wants his/her family to be able to attend a school that teaches them things that actually give them the skills to get jobs to support their potential families (instead of the bullshit political/sexual correctness that has left 2 generations with attitudes, but no actual job skills) should have the ability to do so. I actually tried to engage on some of these points. I asked if we could start a discussion. No attempt was made to unpack or elaborate on any of this. Please note that this is pretty much entirely a mish-mash of vague, unclear statements and utter nonsense. > [@](#): > > I find it more and more amusing that the lefties on this site use vulgarity to make their claims. > > The left is the party of hate, violence, and casual ignorance. I can’t feel hate for you - who have been educated by a disgusting generation of drug addled liberal morons - because in the end you don’t have the courage to seek the truth. ☹ This isn’t some random sockpuppet, either; this is a person who has been on a site dedicated to fighting ignorance for _over a decade_. And when they engage (for several pages) in political discourse, this is the level they find apt. And while this isn’t typical for the Straight Dope (shoutouts to **HurricaneDitka** and **Bricker** ; though I often find your politics awful, you fairly consistently raise the level of discourse here), this is entirely typical for basically every other forum I have ever seen that allows for political debate. From a sample size of several large internet forums over a couple years, the vast majority of Trump supporters who spend time online discussing politics choose to do so at this level. They either cannot or will not rise above it. They believe crazy nonsense, they reject reasonable sources, and they seem either unwilling or unable to defend their claims with anything resembling actual reason. Maybe, just maybe, that’s part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/646 "2017-07-05T13:22:02Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > The quote snipers might not care about the opening and closing of this post, so I’ll just point it out before they start getting to work on this post. > > And the other 43. But never this aggressively as far as I remember. I don’t recall a photo shoot showing Obama’s head held up ISIS-style. [https://www.causes.com/causes/350394-join-the-fight-to-stop-dishonoring-the-president/updates/620775-secret-service-says-the-number-of-threats-against-the-president-is-overwhelming](https://www.causes.com/causes/350394-join-the-fight-to-stop-dishonoring-the-president/updates/620775-secret-service-says-the-number-of-threats-against-the-president-is-overwhelming) President Barack Obama is the target of more than 30 potential death threats a day and is being protected by an increasingly over-stretched Secret Service. He is the most threatened President in history. Since the President took office in 2008, the rate of threats against the president has increased 400% cent. Some threats to the President have been publicized, including the well known alleged plot by white supremacists in Tennessee to rob a gun store, shoot 88 black people, decapitate another 14 and then assassinate the first black president in American history. Most however, are kept under wraps because the Secret Service fears that revealing details of them would only increase the number of copycat attempts. Not to put too fine a point on it, but _Obama got a fuckton of death threats_. I don’t know that we have similar information on Trump, but if you want to claim that the rhetoric now is somehow more vitriolic, that things were never more aggressive, you’re going to need to back it up somehow. Because I seriously doubt it. The reason the Kathy Griffin thing was such a big deal is because the left is not well known for shit like this. The right, on the other hand? [![](http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/zxjPHAg0T64/mqdefault.jpg) ](http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/zxjPHAg0T64/mqdefault.jpg) [![](http://media.culturemap.com/crop/d2/07/320x240/Gallows_of_Effigy_Obama_noose_November_2012-2.jpg) ](http://media.culturemap.com/crop/d2/07/320x240/Gallows_of_Effigy_Obama_noose_November_2012-2.jpg) [![](https://dingo.care2.com/pictures/causes/2950/2949696.large.jpg) ](https://dingo.care2.com/pictures/causes/2950/2949696.large.jpg) [https://www.google.de/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiu3-\_cmvLUAhXGUhQKHeYcC9sQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bighairynews.com%2F2012%2F12%2Fgun-control-obamas-on-target.html&psig=AFQjCNEMGCbfLWs9PbwNJnUvmGubRiCi7A&ust=1499346389327654](https://www.google.de/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiu3-_cmvLUAhXGUhQKHeYcC9sQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bighairynews.com%2F2012%2F12%2Fgun-control-obamas-on-target.html&psig=AFQjCNEMGCbfLWs9PbwNJnUvmGubRiCi7A&ust=1499346389327654) [https://www.google.de/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiNmturnPLUAhWBVBQKHaUbBZAQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2Fentry%2Fmuslim-free-gun-store-president-targets\_us\_574e7b9fe4b0af73af95cd54&psig=AFQjCNEMGCbfLWs9PbwNJnUvmGubRiCi7A&ust=1499346389327654](https://www.google.de/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiNmturnPLUAhWBVBQKHaUbBZAQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2Fentry%2Fmuslim-free-gun-store-president-targets_us_574e7b9fe4b0af73af95cd54&psig=AFQjCNEMGCbfLWs9PbwNJnUvmGubRiCi7A&ust=1499346389327654) And so on and so forth. Perhaps not as explicitly bloody, but I don’t think you get just how abnormal things were during Obama’s presidency with regards to the hostility and threats of violence. None of that shit even registers any more. It qualifies as “normal” coming from the right. > [@](#): > > I can’t go heavy on sources right now because I’m on a phone posting right now, but I can tell you the numerous amount of situations alt-left and leftist media outlets (everyone else but fox and Sinclair media outlets, minus WGN-TV at the moment), have demonized the right. Spare me, please. Here are a few titles of best-selling books written by right-wing pundits. “Treason” “Godless” “Demonic” _And that’s just Ann Coulter_. If you listen to AM radio, you will constantly hear about the evil, godless liberals who are coming to take your guns and who hate freedom and support terrorists. The christian right very literally demonized Barack Obama as the _actual fucking antichrist_ - [never mind the guy who actually seems to fit the bill](http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/blog/antichrist/). Glenn Beck got a show on FOX News (and built his own media empire) by building absolutely insane conspiracy theories about the president. Don’t even get me fucking started on Alex Jones. So the left stepping up their game still leaves them leagues behind the right in terms of straight-up vitriol. What’s more, If there’s more vitriol coming from the left than you’re used to, or it seems like the mainstream media is demonizing the right more often, well, consider that part of the problem might be what the right has become. The president offers new lies damn near daily, often multiple times a day. He constantly attacks the press as an enemy. I shouldn’t have to go over this again. The republican party, as it currently stands, has _lost its fucking mind_. It’s not unreasonable to point that out. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/647 "2017-07-05T14:02:12Z")
I agree that the reality for conservatives is different than what the rest of us live in. They live in a bubble where disagreement with the conservative catechism is simply not tolerated. That’s part of it. But I think another factor is how they react to news: News item: apparent terrorist attack. While most of us are concerned about the victims, conservatives are praying that the attacker is Muslim, in hopes of confirming their stereotypes and fanning their hatred. News item: mass shooting in the US. While most of us are feeling sympathy for those killed, injured, of having lost their loved ones, conservatives have only one concern: OH MY GOD ARE THE GUNS ALL RIGHT? That followed by choruses of “now is not the time to talk about guns” and “we need more guns to make things safe”. News item: unarmed black teen shot 12 times and killed by police. While we wonder why police need to shoot an unarmed boy at all, let alone 12 times, conservatives are saying “haw haw! He had it coming! I read somewhere that he had an overdue library book at one time.” They not only get a heavily filtered news, they are unable to process it like a normal adult. Their ignorance and immorality can only be stomached for so long before the rest of us become embittered and saddened by them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/648 "2017-07-05T14:32:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I agree that the reality for conservatives is different than what the rest of us live in. They live in a bubble where disagreement with the conservative catechism is simply not tolerated. That’s part of it. But I think another factor is how they react to news: > > News item: apparent terrorist attack. While most of us are concerned about the victims, conservatives are praying that the attacker is Muslim, in hopes of confirming their stereotypes and fanning their hatred. > > News item: mass shooting in the US. While most of us are feeling sympathy for those killed, injured, of having lost their loved ones, conservatives have only one concern: OH MY GOD ARE THE GUNS ALL RIGHT? That followed by choruses of “now is not the time to talk about guns” and “we need more guns to make things safe”. > > News item: unarmed black teen shot 12 times and killed by police. While we wonder why police need to shoot an unarmed boy at all, let alone 12 times, conservatives are saying “haw haw! He had it coming! I read somewhere that he had an overdue library book at one time.” > > They not only get a heavily filtered news, they are unable to process it like a normal adult. Their ignorance and immorality can only be stomached for so long before the rest of us become embittered and saddened by them. I think this is a great example of the kind of sweeping generalization that is almost always false for huge swaths of people that greatly contributes to the current polarization and bitterness. Some conservatives probably react as you suggest. I’m quite certain that many (and very possibly most) do not. As a rule, sweeping negative generalizations about millions and millions of people are almost always wrong. Making such sweeping generalizations hurts America, even if it’s only by a little bit each time. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/649 "2017-07-05T14:44:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some conservatives probably react as you suggest. I’m quite certain that many (and very possibly most) do not. The ones who make noise do react like this. When I see Republicans that want to do something to address school shootings and police violence, maybe I’ll stop generalizing. Those who aren’t flaming bigots are for the moment enabling those who are. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/650 "2017-07-05T14:52:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The ones who make noise do react like this. When I see Republicans that want to do something to address school shootings and police violence, maybe I’ll stop generalizing. Those who aren’t flaming bigots are for the moment enabling those who are. I hold professionals, like cops, at least partially responsible for the sins of their fellow professionals when they know about them and do nothing. But that doesn’t, and shouldn’t IMO, extend to every random citizen sharing responsibility for the sins of strangers by virtue of some shared political belief or something like that. Why not just stop the sweeping generalizations? They do literally no good whatsoever, and they do a lot of harm. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/651 "2017-07-05T15:06:59Z")
Be careful you two guys don’t become bitter political enemies! ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/652 "2017-07-05T15:15:43Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > What I meant by voting for Clinton was that out of all options in the ballot, I estimated Clinton would win Illinois, so I voted with her on the election. As I said, I’ll accept the outcome. You’re doing it wrong. That’s not how you vote, that’s how you bet on a horse. It’s not about who you think _will_ win, it’s about who you think _should_ win. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/653 "2017-07-05T15:44:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I actually tried to engage on some of these points. I asked if we could start a discussion. No attempt was made to unpack or elaborate on any of this. Please note that this is pretty much entirely a mish-mash of vague, unclear statements and utter nonsense. > > This isn’t some random sockpuppet, either; this is a person who has been on a site dedicated to fighting ignorance for _over a decade_. And when they engage (for several pages) in political discourse, this is the level they find apt. And while this isn’t typical for the Straight Dope (shoutouts to **HurricaneDitka** and **Bricker** ; though I often find your politics awful, you fairly consistently raise the level of discourse here), this is entirely typical for basically every other forum I have ever seen that allows for political debate. From a sample size of several large internet forums over a couple years, the vast majority of Trump supporters who spend time online discussing politics choose to do so at this level. They either cannot or will not rise above it. They believe crazy nonsense, they reject reasonable sources, and they seem either unwilling or unable to defend their claims with anything resembling actual reason. > > Maybe, just maybe, that’s part of the problem. They reject your ‘reasonable sources’ because they don’t trust them or value them as sources of information that they can really get anything from. In my experience, conservatives rely more on their personal experiences more than academic sources. They will tell you that academia and the media don’t know what’s going on in their part of the world, and to be completely honest, I even kinda ‘get it’. I mean, after all, they were wrong about the election results. But even now, thinking that more drama over the Russian scandal is going to change how they see current politics is an ongoing failure to understand why Trump’s America is still fighting back. They’re fighting back because they feel their under economic and cultural siege. I think they know that they’re probably factually ‘wrong’ in a lot of cases - they don’t care. And they don’t care because when people feel they’re being ignored, disrespected, and cornered, what matters most is beating the other guy. I think this is indicative of a larger culture war that’s been waged for a while now, which is why it has become so nasty. It’s anecdotal but one thing I’ve observed repeatedly is that the internet is probably just not a good place for having these kinds of discussions. That’s especially true if it’s an anonymous forum where people don’t know each other and assume the worst about another poster’s personality and background, but as I’m sure we’ve all seen, even when people know each other in real life, it seems like people get angry when they find out what their true beliefs are. It’s probably better to sit and drink a beer with someone and talk to them face to face. And rather than saying “You’re wrong - Google it!” It’s probably better to ask questions, listen, and gain trust. If progressives want to make inroads in Trump’s America they’re going to have to rely a little less on epistemology – at least at first – and more on convincing them that progressive policies don’t have to mean the extinction of their America. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=32)