# "How Did We Become Bitter Political Enemies?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112 "2017-06-16T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/61 "2017-06-16T20:19:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I feel the same way about people who want to ban guns or think Christianity should be a bar from public office. How do you feel about those who are willing to look into reasonable ways to try to combat the gun violence in our country, or those who will not vote for someone who makes decisions on how others should behave based on their own personal religious beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/62 "2017-06-16T20:23:20Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Good for you **Alan Smithee** , but there are any number of ways to have a free exchange of ideas without being specifically about political ideas. Yes, I agree! I mentioned several ways I try to do it. In fact, it was kind of my point! > [@](#): > > People choose to deal with ideas they want to address. I agree with this, too. > [@](#): > > It’s not a problem. It’s a made up problem. I’m not sure what this part means. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/63 "2017-06-16T20:40:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I feel the same way about people who want to ban guns or think Christianity should be a bar from public office. Based on polling I’ve seen, opposition to gay marriage, and belief that climate change is a hoax, are much, much more common than wanting to ban guns or believing Christianity should be a bar from public office. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/64 "2017-06-16T20:57:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I feel the same way about people who want to ban guns or think Christianity should be a bar from public office. The comment you were responding to was about climate change denial and opposition to gay marriage. The difference is that both of these things have been common and even mainstream in conservative circles, whereas I have yet to see any mainstream liberal view that seeks to “ban guns” or that “Christianity should be a bar from public office”. Seeking to have stronger gun laws more similar to those in every civilized nation on earth is not “banning guns”, and questioning the impartiality of an extreme Christian fundamentalist with a history of inflammatory op-eds is not “banning Christians from public office”. This sort of extreme hyperbole coming from you is very ironic given what you just said: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ve been trying to encourage posters here to ease up on the hyperbole recently, but I don’t think it’s had much effect. Perhaps you should try harder to follow your own advice. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/65 "2017-06-16T20:57:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No, my first reaction to your earlier comment “Be the solution. Start by not ridiculing the other side and calling them stupid names.” is that it’s precisely setting up a false equivalency. There was a time when the difference between Democrats and Republicans was indeed a matter of differences in values and world-view, when you might agree more with one ideology than the other but rational discussions could be had because both sides were basically rational and there were discernible common goals. Those kinds of discussions were basically philosophical and just represented different values and different approaches to achieving those goals. > > In the current situation Republicans have become divorced from science, facts, and reason, and have increasingly attracted a dedicated group of like-minded followers, reaching its low point this last election cycle where blatant, rampant dishonesty is the new normal. This is not a group that is going to be mollified by a conciliatory approach or appeal to facts and reason. Even the goals are no longer common when many believe the ideal is a Christian white America that shuns immigrants, disdains science, and wants to drive the economy by burning every ounce of fossil fuel that they can dig or pump out of the ground. What productive strategy would you actually imagine would come out of trying to “be the solution”? What **is** the solution when someone’s core beliefs are manifestly disconnected from reality, when many of the views are not just anti-science but anti-social, tribal and isolationist, disdainful and fearful of minorities, religiously dogmatic, and the person is insulted when confronted with it? Well, if all you want to do is feel better about yourself, you can keep insulting the folks on the other side. And if you can’t see that “not calling someone a stupid name” is different from saying “both sides do it”, then I don’t know what I can say. Keep insulting them and let us know how that works out for you. I’m happy to admit that “the right” has been much more irrational and hateful in recent years. I am most definitely not saying that both sides are the same. But if you can’t treat the other person with human dignity, and at least try to understand why they believe what they do, then you’re only going to make the rift wider. Is that what you want? Remember, what I posted was “a start”, not the be all and end all. I’m just saying that you can’t even start to heal the rift if you are unwilling to drop the insults. It’s like the Israeli/Palestinian problem. Do you want to fix things or do you want to argue about who did “it” first? And please note that I didn’t say anything about which side had to stop with the insults. But note that it’s only a few folks on the left who have objected. N one here on there right has come in to say “no way”. That’s this MB, though, not RL. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/66 "2017-06-16T21:32:07Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > And that’s not even mentioning the way Rush and his fellow travelers have been calling me a traitor, a slut, a murderer, and a feminazi for twenty years now. This problem didn’t just start when we liberals finally got fed up. > [@madmonk28](#): > > I think this paragraph demonstrates exactly why we will never heal the rift. It is not just “some commenters and politicians” who deny climate change, it is the Republican president of the United States. I think it is incredibly disingenuous to try to suggest otherwise. These are _excellent_ reasons to hate Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump. I’m not convinced they are good reasons to hate everyone who calls themselves “Conservative” or “Republican” though. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/67 "2017-06-16T21:32:14Z")
Would anyone else be happy to divide ourselves in two? One, a multi-cultural, inclusive and progressive country, and the other, a primarily white, exclusive, conservative and mono-cultural society? I would. I don’t hate all conservatives. Some are moderate, with enlightened social views, who also happen to want smaller government and favor fiscally conservative policies. I have friends like that and the political disagreements don’t get heated, but… It’s the bigotry I just can’t abide. The hatred. As a white, middle-class male, I’ve moved in circles from trailer parks to country club cocktail parties. Way, way, too often when I find myself in these all-white gatherings, inevitably, minorities, gays, and anyone else who isn’t white and heterosexual gets trashed. And it’s so part of the norm that people are shocked when you object. The anti-black racism is the worst of it. There are far too many white republicans who promote that kind of hatred and it’s intolerable. If you are white and republican, you know exactly what I mean. It might bother you, but you don’t speak up because you are badly outnumbered. Not all liberals and democrats are pure and free of bigotry, obviously. But I’d just rather not be around the race-hating, homophobic boors who are the majority in the republican party. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/68 "2017-06-16T21:35:34Z")
And it seems the war has started. Not only do you have the shooting of the politicians in Virginia, but now someone [has shot at](https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/06/15/shots-fired-at-truck-flying-make-america-great-again-flag-in-indiana/) a random Trump supporter. Oh yes, the Trump supporter is a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/69 "2017-06-16T21:37:42Z")
A political divorce would be great, unfortunately, will probably not happen until the rancor or bitterness gets 10x worse than now. Even then it couldn’t happen unless the split were very cleanly along geographical lines. Right now even the reddest of states are 25% liberal and the bluest of states are 25% conservative. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/70 "2017-06-16T21:42:04Z")
I’d favor separation as well, but what I think we’ll have is kind of a low level civil war: an abortion clinic bombing here, an Congressman shooting there and we’ll lurch from a red state president to a blue state president each trying to undo the work of the previous administration. Add to that the fact that America is awash in guns and it doesn’t look promising. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/71 "2017-06-16T21:45:10Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Climate change is an easy compromise, You take the amount of warming you want done and then figure the amount of carbon reduction it would take to achieve it and then you cut that in half. > For gay marriage, how about places that want to recognize gay marriage are allowed to do so and places that don’t want to do so are allowed not to? The climate change thing seems really odd to me - wouldn’t it be better to figure out what the anti-climate actually want, and see if those needs can be met to any degree or their concerns can be alleviated? I suspect the answer is “I want to keep selling and burning fossil fuels”, so probably not, but it’s better than facilely hamstringing a climate change target for no clear or rational reason. (This is putting aside the fact that dragging our feet on climate change could possibly kill us all, literally. So it’s a bit like compromising with somebody who wants to shoot you in the head. If somebody wanted to double-tap you between the eyes, would you consider it a good approach to try to argue him down to one shot?) And regarding your gay marriage argument, would you suggest a similar approach regarding slavery? Many people consider this an issue of fundamental human rights. Well, _everyone_ does, actually; some just think that certain people don’t deserve those rights. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/72 "2017-06-16T21:53:14Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And it seems the war has started. Not only do you have the shooting of the politicians in Virginia, but now someone [has shot at](https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/06/15/shots-fired-at-truck-flying-make-america-great-again-flag-in-indiana/) a random Trump supporter. Oh yes, the Trump supporter is a Democrat. You think a war has “started” because some random jackoffs committed a criminal act? Did it really just start? Maybe it was the right wing who started it with [Matthew Shepard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard) or [James Byrd Jr.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Byrd_Jr.). Really? You think criminals, no matter right or left, have suddenly started something? Jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/73 "2017-06-16T22:03:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, if all you want to do is feel better about yourself, you can keep insulting the folks on the other side. And if you can’t see that “not calling someone a stupid name” is different from saying “both sides do it”, then I don’t know what I can say. Keep insulting them and let us know how that works out for you. > > I’m happy to admit that “the right” has been much more irrational and hateful in recent years. I am most definitely not saying that both sides are the same. But if you can’t treat the other person with human dignity, and at least try to understand why they believe what they do, then you’re only going to make the rift wider. Is that what you want? Remember, what I posted was “a start”, not the be all and end all. I’m just saying that you can’t even start to heal the rift if you are unwilling to drop the insults. It’s like the Israeli/Palestinian problem. Do you want to fix things or do you want to argue about who did “it” first? > > And please note that I didn’t say anything about which side had to stop with the insults. But note that it’s only a few folks on the left who have objected. N one here on there right has come in to say “no way”. That’s this MB, though, not RL. I notice that you didn’t address the part about science and facts. And yet, that was always our common ground. We expressed different opinions, but we could at least meet in the middle by agreeing to the facts. That isn’t possible anymore. Facts are no longer agreed upon. Rather, we are introduced to the concept of “alternative facts” by KelleyAnne. People are told not to trust science, not to trust the press, not to trust anyone that doesn’t use the right buzz words. Those on the right often gets insulted simply because they refuse to acknowledge this, but facts are indeed facts. I don’t see any of this polarization getting better until we get back to that simple truth. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/74 "2017-06-16T22:09:43Z")
The hate will continue until enough of us get sick of it. I don’t know what, or how long, that will take. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/75 "2017-06-16T22:16:41Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > The hate will continue until enough of us get sick of it. > > I don’t know what, or how long, that will take. And then, filled with rage, we slaughter everyone who hates other people? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/76 "2017-06-16T22:34:26Z")
Isn’t that on the agenda? A National Day of Purge? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/77 "2017-06-16T22:35:20Z")
You know if we just ignore it, for most of us (I assume we don’t ALL live in Portland) it won’t exist. Though I may be caught by surprise when a SWAT team kicks down my door in a couple of years if I ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/78 "2017-06-16T22:41:31Z")
> [@Club\_33](#): > > I notice that you didn’t address the part about science and facts. And yet, that was always our common ground. We expressed different opinions, but we could at least meet in the middle by agreeing to the facts. That isn’t possible anymore. Facts are no longer agreed upon. Rather, we are introduced to the concept of “alternative facts” by KelleyAnne. People are told not to trust science, not to trust the press, not to trust anyone that doesn’t use the right buzz words. > > Those on the right often gets insulted simply because they refuse to acknowledge this, but facts are indeed facts. I don’t see any of this polarization getting better until we get back to that simple truth. Yeah, we already KNOW why they “believe as they do”: because Fox News and Breitbart lie to them, and they accept the lies as truth. I also think black people have a pretty clear understanding why conservatives believe as they do on, say, police shootings. But sure, go tell a Muslim they should sit down and talk to the alt right and understand why it is they think their religion makes them sub human and why their ancestral home should be bombed to oblivion. That’ll work out really well for both sides. How did we become bitter political enemies? When you decided that minorities/poor people/people like me weren’t worthy of basic humanity, AND tried to enshrine that belief into law. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/79 "2017-06-16T23:07:22Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Yeah, we already KNOW why they “believe as they do”: because Fox News and Breitbart lie to them, and they accept the lies as truth. I also think black people have a pretty clear understanding why conservatives believe as they do on, say, police shootings. > > But sure, go tell a Muslim they should sit down and talk to the alt right and understand why it is they think their religion makes them sub human and why their ancestral home should be bombed to oblivion. That’ll work out really well for both sides. > > How did we become bitter political enemies? When you decided that minorities/poor people/people like me weren’t worthy of basic humanity, AND tried to enshrine that belief into law. As Leaper as demonstrated, because internet. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/80 "2017-06-16T23:16:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > 172 million Muslims live in India (only 30 million less than Pakistan) India is 80% hindu, Pakistan is 97% Muslim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=5)