# "How Did We Become Bitter Political Enemies?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112 "2017-06-16T13:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/101 "2017-06-17T01:06:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yeah, I’m serious. There isn’t much of anything that could “kill us all”. Even if we were trying specifically to accomplish that goal with all the nuclear weapons the various nations of the Earth possess. There are simply to many of us, spread too far and wide, for a nuclear war to “kill us all”. Ditto for global warming, at least as far as I understand it. I’m hardly an expert on the subject, but the Great Dying during the Permian period described in this article killed off 95% of marine life and 70% of life on land. If we hit some kind of runaway greenhouse effect I don’t see how it would be implausible to experience similar shifts that would render our atmosphere uninhabitable. I don’t know how fast it would happen, but it seems totally plausible to me that we could all die. We may be spread all over the planet, but our atmosphere is covering the entire planet, so it would have a more comprehensive effect than a more localized catastrophe. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/102 "2017-06-17T01:09:06Z")
A simple fact: The US is too large and too diverse for one powerful central government. Too many people want to dominate others and they all claim moral superiority over the other side who also wants to dominate and the people who just want to end the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/103 "2017-06-17T01:44:46Z")
For propaganda purposes, angry memes spread faster than nice memes. Those calling for civility could craft hateful, scaremongering memes about the decline of political discourse and what will happen if it’s not stopped, but that’s self defeating. There’s a lot of money in publishing rancorous news stories and opinion pieces, so they’ll also have to fight markets. Policy is made by think tanks, lobbyists, and other power players, so it’s not clear if more civility among the common people would actually do anything of substance or merely change the surface level froth, at least in the short term. Part of the genius of the American culture war backlash is that it allows the rich to divide and conquer the masses, which greatly outnumber them and could threaten their power if properly organized. > [@Settimo](#): > > At some point the tail (the rhetoric) starts wagging the dog (reality). One component of this phenomenon is the culture doesn’t allow for nuance. Long arguments don’t make for pithy arguments on Twitter, two minute network debates where the speakers are constantly interrupted, or bumper stickers. So it’s easier to stake out a simplified, perhaps absurd position than one that requires five minutes to explain. Most people don’t read long form articles. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > even in this fairly left-leaning circle This board mostly consists of older, managerial liberals who support Obama, Hillary, capitalism, and American interventionism if properly veiled in humanitarian concerns. It’s a tad to the left of the Democratic Party on some issues, like UHC, perhaps due to international influence. > [@madmonk28](#): > > So I should treat red state America like some kind of third world quasi democracy where human rights are not really respected? I already do that, it’s why I don’t consider them to be my countrymen. That’s a rare outlook, I find. Usually people are relativists about other countries, but not regions of their own country. I don’t usually hear liberals say well, you can’t judge people in Alabama. It’s a different culture down there, and you’re measuring them by your own outsider’s perspective. Anyway, this topic reminded me of an IOZ quote: > [@](#): > > It won’t go far enough to ban hateful rhetoric. We must ban rhetoric altogether. We must unite in a concerted effort to eradicate the expression of thoughts, opinions, and sentiments in language. We must embrace an unmediated primitivism through which our animal consciousness can once again reassert its preverbal, non-apprehending interaction with the natural world, the very structure of thought freed from the tyranny of verbalism. > > We must overthrow symbolic thought and reason, experiencing that-which-is solely as its is-in-itselfness. Only through the extirpation of the perversion of narrative self-consciousness can we triumph over hate, achieving a beatific, edenic transcendence whereby we are free to pass into pre-post-human supramorality, to lead us through to a heaven, starless and fatherless, a dark water. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/104 "2017-06-17T01:49:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > ETA: sorry about your parents. Seconded. Very much seconded. I could not imagine become estranged with my parents, or my wife over our differing politics. I am horrified this has happened in some families. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/105 "2017-06-17T01:56:59Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Meanwhile, I don’t have to attend a BBQ fundraiser for the KKK just to break out of my bubble. I read books about woo and try to grok the p.o.v. of the authors/practitioners. I attended a community event recently at the local mosque. I do outreach for my local atheist group at teh farmers Market downtown and speak with people on all sides. I seek out opinions and facts that will challenge by presuppositions. I hope you spoke up for radical atheism in the mosque, muslims like being challenged too. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/106 "2017-06-17T02:18:54Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I could not imagine become estranged with my parents, or my wife over our differing politics. I am horrified this has happened in some families. I have had to watch my parents completely repudiate the progressive values they raised me with, and express bitter disappointment that I did not do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/107 "2017-06-17T02:21:53Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I could not imagine become estranged with my parents, or my wife over our differing politics. I am horrified this has happened in some families. Well, it certainly hasn’t reached that point yet–in fact, I doubt they are even aware of the magnitude of the gulf. But it has already manifested in subtle ways, where I am just that much less inclined to visit them, particularly when they have friends around who are even more off the rails and they reinforce each other. I just don’t want to spend the whole time listening to some paranoid rant, so if I was on the edge for some particular visit, this kind of thing pushes me to a no thanks. They are reaching an age where some cognitive decline is inevitable. So I’m afraid it’ll just get worse, because that kind of thing tends to amplify existing tendencies. Thanks for the concern (to **HurricaneDitka** as well), at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/108 "2017-06-17T02:28:13Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I’m hardly an expert on the subject, but the Great Dying during the Permian period described in this article killed off 95% of marine life and 70% of life on land. If we hit some kind of runaway greenhouse effect I don’t see how it would be implausible to experience similar shifts that would render our atmosphere uninhabitable. I don’t know how fast it would happen, but it seems totally plausible to me that we could all die. We may be spread all over the planet, but our atmosphere is covering the entire planet, so it would have a more comprehensive effect than a more localized catastrophe. You seem to be ignoring a simple fact: none of the species in existence in prior die-offs were modern humans. We have ample technological means of making sure we survive. Claiming that climate change will wipe us out is simply letting hyperbole take over. Sadly, as you may be showing, the hyperbole goes from being hyperbole to actually believed possibilities. I see that a lot on both “sides” of things. \ ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/109 "2017-06-17T02:32:53Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Do you think it is possible you have been lied to too? Are you so convinced you are right and the other side is wrong? We consume false information every day. The difference between me and a lot of conservatives is that I at least try to ascertain facts. I don’t mean all conservatives are like this, and I always, always appreciate the occasional conservative who can carry on a good discussion and challenge my ideas. When I was in grad school a few years ago, I knew a fair number of conservatives whose intellect I had a lot of respect for, one of whom was a roommate. I occasionally go to the ‘dark side’ and read publications like the Wall St Journal, Forbes, and TheHill. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/110 "2017-06-17T02:37:12Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > You seem to be ignoring a simple fact: none of the species in existence in prior die-offs were modern humans. We have ample technological means of making sure we survive. Claiming that climate change will wipe us out is simply letting hyperbole take over. Sadly, as you may be showing, the hyperbole goes from being hyperbole to actually believed possibilities. I see that a lot on both “sides” of things. \ For fucks sake, don’t conflate your opinions with facts. A fact is something that exists and can be observed. There is nothing in existence right now that suggests we can reverse the effects of climate change. There absolutely is evidence that shows climate change has had disastrous effects on species, including ours. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/111 "2017-06-17T02:37:43Z")
[Rightists have upped the ante](http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/06/breaking-protesters-interrupt-trump-assassination-play-rush-stage-screaming-goebbels-proud-video/) in a move that would make BLM proud. (that’s a snark on the hijacking of a Bernie speech) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/112 "2017-06-17T02:43:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We do have one model for changing political views, and this goes for the left and the right: Same Sex Marriage. Somehow, we went from being in favor of SSM as a fringe view on the left (and the libertarians, of course 🙂 ) to it being mainstream among both liberals and conservatives. I don’t know if it’s a majority view among conservatives these days, but enough are in favor for it to be considered mainstream (i.e., not a fringe view). I think part of that was either knowing someone who is gay or watching enough TV\* where gays are portrayed in non-scary roles. And that certainly was a bitter fight at times, but it’s hard to imagine a social change that happened that quickly. > > \*I would not underestimate the role people like Ellen Degeneres played the whole issue of acceptance of gays and of gay rights. I’ll tell you how we arrived at that conclusion. It most likely started on a cold winter Wyoming night with the savage beating and murder of a young gay man named Matthew Shepard. People finally began to realize that prejudice isn’t just an idea; it’s an idea that gets people killed in cold blood. It’s what whites sitting at home in the 1950s and 60s realized with regard to the civil rights murders and lynchings. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/113 "2017-06-17T02:49:13Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > I hope you spoke up for radical atheism in the mosque, muslims like being challenged too. Is this a joke, an insult, a criticism, support, a sincere comment? I can’t tell. Whatever it is, though, it’s not much. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/114 "2017-06-17T03:05:12Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The difference between me and a lot of conservatives is that I at least try to ascertain facts. Do you realize that there are conservatives out there who feel this same way about “a lot of liberals”? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/115 "2017-06-17T03:12:19Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Is this a joke, an insult, a criticism, support, a sincere comment? I can’t tell. Whatever it is, though, it’s not much. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he’s never been socialized – like he’s a bubble-boy who’s never been kissed, you know? Now… Did you speak up for radical atheism at the mosque? If you didn’t, why not? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/116 "2017-06-17T03:12:42Z")
This thread reminds me of that Democrat kid that berated Donna Brazille: ‘you’re going to die of old age. I’m going to die from climate change.’ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/117 "2017-06-17T03:27:24Z")
> [@Dr.Crap](#): > > Give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he’s never been socialized – like he’s a bubble-boy who’s never been kissed, you know? Now… > > Did you speak up for radical atheism at the mosque? If you didn’t, why not? I thought about saying something about how atheists and Muslims are both religious minorities who are often mistrusted and feared by the majority, and their event was a good example of how to overcome that, but I decided against it because I didn’t want to try to hijack their event for my message, however briefly and politely. No one else was making comments about being part of the X community, where X was Jewish or Christian or LGBT, or anything else (other than the Muslims hosting the event, of course), so I decided it would be out of place. It was a great event, BTW. Very well attended, with interesting speakers and great food! It really was a great example of how to break down barriers and build community. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/118 "2017-06-17T03:38:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This thread reminds me of that Democrat kid that berated Donna Brazille: ‘you’re going to die of old age. I’m going to die from climate change.’ :rolleyes: You make fun, and I would be inclined to as well, but you do understand, to the best of our knowledge, the the Earth’s mass extinctions resulted from changes in the gas composition of our atmosphere? You also understand that extinctions are not events that occur at a single time point but occur gradually over a relatively short time period? Why I ask this 2nd question is the implication is that the environment becomes miserable prior to the extinction. Why subject billions of people to an unpredictable degradation in living conditions for the sake of burning fossil fuels? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/119 "2017-06-17T04:58:41Z")
I don’t know if y’all noticed, but for the last 100 posts or so there has been some seriously opposing viewpoints expressed on a couple of today’s “hot button” topics and, for the most part, there hasn’t been any name calling. So, real honest discourse among people who have real honest differences is not a pipe dream. We don’t have to agree. Hell, we don’t have to compromise if the issue is that important to us, But we do have to recognize that we are neighbors, and fellow citizens! mc ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112/120 "2017-06-17T05:35:21Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I don’t know if y’all noticed, but for the last 100 posts or so there has been some seriously opposing viewpoints expressed on a couple of today’s “hot button” topics and, for the most part, there hasn’t been any name calling. So, real honest discourse among people who have real honest differences is not a pipe dream. We don’t have to agree. Hell, we don’t have to compromise if the issue is that important to us, But we do have to recognize that we are neighbors, and fellow citizens! > > mc True, but the Dope is a civil place than most. Which reminds me, how do I join and get rid of these ads? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-become-bitter-political-enemies/789112.md?page=7)