# How did we figure out that cows' milk would be good for us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 6, 2002, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515 "2002-08-06T00:53:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/21 "2002-08-06T12:20:45Z")
Let me try to be as delicate as possible… Any adults ever try human milk?.. …from the source? ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/22 "2002-08-06T12:30:40Z")
Whatever made a bird decide, “Mmm…I think I’ll swoop down and scoop up a worm, that’ll be tasty.” ? You are oversimplifying the whole development of how animals come to nourish themselves on unique things. Like eggs - since humans didn’t start this eating ‘trend’ thousands of years ago…other animals have been stealing eggs for millions of years. When it comes to milk, one who is intelligent enough can draw certain conclusions based on prior experience (like knowing you can eat the flesh, eggs and other bits ‘n’ pieces of various plants, birds, mammals, etc. ) -A species with the thinking power of man would not have to make a huge leap to draw the conclusion that when starving, rather than eat the animal and end the food supply, use the food supply of the animal. The more a group did this, the more they survived…etc…etc. Og didn’t roll over one day and do it on a dare, but some discussion took place in some form and the best strategy to have a replenishable food source was a winner…one that proved it’s value as those who domesticated animals did not starve…and reproduced and passed on the behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/23 "2002-08-06T12:31:59Z")
-A species with the thinking power of man would not have to make a huge leap to draw the conclusion that when starving, rather than eat the animal and end the food supply, use the food supply of the animal. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/24 "2002-08-06T12:45:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Let me try to be as delicate as possible… > > Any adults ever try human milk?.. > > …from the source? They have. Look up “Roman Charity”. I’ve tried what our daughter used – from the source. I don’t think anyone’s ever considered cultivating human breast milk as a real resource – too hard to get in large quantities, and cows are so much easier. (Have a look at Pierrs Anthony’s bizarre story “In the Barn”, about a parallel world where they do use human milk. It’s in one of the **Dangerous Visions** anthologies, and in a Piers Anthony anthology as well. ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/25 "2002-08-06T12:49:12Z")
plus, cows turn inedible food into edible. ever try to eat grass? ffluh! jb ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/26 "2002-08-06T13:22:20Z")
**Philister** , was that answering me? In any case, I’ll treat it as if it was. 😉 I agree that once a member of a group was shown to thrive on something they’d experimented with, the rest would be liable to, as well. And that the experience would be passed down for generations. I’m specifically disagreeing with the idea that it was a rational process. I gave one historical example, and I believe I can easily find others. (I believe the early American colonists went hungry when corn was in ready supply, for example?) People’s reaction to things they haven’t historically eaten is usually “You eat THAT?” For example, I know that fish heads are nutritious, that many cultures use them in food. I won’t touch them. I don’t care whether I’m throwing food away. And some deep animal part of me suspects they must be crazy for eating them. Food sources that are known are dangerous enough (when infested or covered in bacteria). Why add to the risk of eating something you know nothing about? That’s the way most people reasoned. Why, otherwise were diets so very restricted historically? It couldn’t have been because there was no knowledge that other people ate other things. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/27 "2002-08-06T13:48:09Z")
An aside about human milk – it has is being used, from milk banks, to feed very sick or old people in modern times. I don’t have a cite at the moment but I shall browse for one and report back. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/28 "2002-08-06T14:08:28Z")
> [@](#): > > The Mother’s Milk Bank at Austin, the first milk bank in Texas, has dispensed more than 21,500 ounces of human milk to more than 78 recipients in four hospitals since it opened in July 1999. The first priority of The Mother’s Milk Bank at Austin is to provide milk to premature or sick infants whose mothers areunable to provide enough of their own milk. **The milk bank also provides donor milk to children and adults being treated for leukemia and organ transplants and plans to use surplus donor milk > for cancer research.** [Texas Department of Health](http://www.tdh.state.tx.us/news/ac072800.htm) There ya go. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/29 "2002-08-06T14:15:49Z")
(partly warmer…now I am adressing you) Ok…in many scenarios, and under many circumstances, people starved when there was food around. This would be “expected”. In other words, the use of cow’s milk, or goats milk, or other animal milk would be the case of exception at first. Actually, I would expect that if large groups were running out of food, many would starve while a few might be daring enough to try something, or creative enough to try and eat something never tried before. So, over time, while the majority continued to shun a certain practice, those who didn’t had a slight advantage. Drinking other milk was a rational decision. It had to be. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/30 "2002-08-06T14:21:51Z")
I may be wrong, but I don’t think the human milk is dished out to the cancer and leukemia patients and the organ recipients for their consumption, but rather that the treatment they are undergoing renders their own natural milk unsuitable for consumption by their infant(s). ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/31 "2002-08-06T15:46:38Z")
No, no. The milk is used for people who are actually sick. [The Mother’s Milk Bank at Austin](http://www.mmbaustin.org/mmb.htm) says > [@](#): > > Clientele to be Served > > ``` > The MMBA provides milk to several types of high-priority recipients. The > most pressing need is for premature and very ill infants who are > hospitalized in Austin's intensive care units. Other sick children, such as > leukemia and other cancer patients and those with bowel disease, can also > benefit from consuming human milk. > > ``` > > 1. Other categories include **young or adult organ transplant recipients experiencing host rejection** and healthy full-term infants whose mothers physically cannot breastfeed or are unavailable. The footnotes to this article include: Wiggins P and Arnold L, Clinical Case History: Donor Milk Use for Severe Gastroesophageal Reflux in an Adult, Journal of Human Lactation 1998, 14(2):157-59. While I didn’t see THIS article online, its title clearly shows that human milk was at least tested for the treatment of this reflux condition in adults. The San Diego County Breastfeeding Coalition, in a page titled [Clinical Uses for Banked Donor Human Milk](http://www.breastfeeding.org/articles/milkbank2.html), notes > [@](#): > > Medicinal/Therapeutic Uses: > > ``` > Treatment for infectious diseases (intractable diarrhea, gastroenteritis, infantile botulism, sepsis,pneumonia, hemorrhagic conjunctivitis) > Post-surgical healing (omphalocele, gastroschisis, intestinal obstruction/bowel fistula, colostomy repair) > Immunodeficiency diseases (severe allergies, IgA deficiencies) > Inborn errors of metabolism > Solid organ transplants (including adults) > Non-infectious intestinal disorders (ulcerative colitis, irritable bowel syndrome) > > ``` And again, in the footnotes I see referenced: Arnold LDW: Possibilities for donor milk use in adult clinical settings - A largely unexplored area. J Hum Lact 12:59-60, 1996. Not to beat it to death. It’s sort of difficult to search for this information on the internet. I read an article a while ago which told of human milk being fed to AIDS patients, I think it was and perhaps the very aged. I wish I could find it, or remember better! :o I was motivated to do all this searching mostly to refresh MY memory! (And, sorry for the hijack, for those who might consider it so.) ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/32 "2002-08-06T16:18:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AtomicDog \* > \*\*Let me try to be as delicate as possible… > Any adults ever try human milk?.. > …from the source? \*\* Sure, of course. I’m nursing right now, and my husband and I have both tried it. And my poor brother almost unwittingly tried it. [And my poor brother almost unwittingly tried it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=124487) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/33 "2002-08-06T17:12:08Z")
I’m glad **CalMeachem** cited Harris, because he is the best source on the subject. But while he’s on the right track his fine response leaves out several important pieces of the puzzle. Dairying probably goes back to a time shortly after hunter gatherers switched to farming and herding. Although the herd animals (and there is dispute on whether goats or sheep or other animals were domesticated first) were probably first used for meat, hides, and other bodily parts, it is almost certain that the use of milk followed soon after. We do know that the first pccitures of dairying appeared about 3500 BC or soon after we have any pictographic evidence of anything. Humans have always closely followed what animals eat, which probably explains why they tried many things like eggs and milk. (Look at the legend of Romulus and Remus being suckled by a wolf, which has parallels in other mythologies.) The best guess is that animal’s milk was used in the absence of a nursing mother. As noted, all humans, like all other mammals, are genetically programmed to be tolerant of milk until the time of weaning. Most animals’ milks are similar enough to support life for long periods of time, and humans have used milk from sheep, goats, cattle, horses, water buffalo, camels, yaks, and several other species for the purpose. (And please spare me the propaganda that calves’ milk is only for calves. Five thousand years of humanity around the world proves this false. Milk drinking is an individual choice today, but it wasn’t always thus.) Also as noted earlier, milk can be made to last longer, especially in the hot climate of the Middle East where domestication of animals is presumed to have begun, in any of several ways. Cheese, yogurt, and fermented and soured milks all keep longer than fresh raw milk. These dairy products have something else in common: they are all low lactose products. And yet some adults must have been more tolerant of these products than other adults, and some must have found it necessary to drink fresh milk before it had time to be processed. Children can digest lactose because they make the enzyme lactase. This lactase-making gene normally switches off at the time of weaning, but it proves to be a simple mutation in which the off switch is never activated. As far as is known this lactose tolerance mutation appears in all populations. Adults who can drink milk, with all its many nutrients and ample calcium, have a slight selection advantage over adults who don’t incultures with few other supplies of the right foods. And, amazingly enough, the lactose tolerance mutation is actually dominant over the normal lactose intolerance type. That means children of tolerant adults are themselves tolerant. This spreads the gene quickly throughout a population, explaining why dairy cultures such as those that developed in northern Europe and spread to the U.S. are so lactose tolerant. Why, yes, I am planning to write a book on the subject of milk. How could you tell? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/34 "2002-08-06T17:39:24Z")
> [@](#): > > And, amazingly enough, the lactose tolerance mutation is actually dominant over the normal lactose intolerance type. That means children of tolerant adults are themselves tolerant. Not necessarily. In fact, the reverse is true: Parents who both express a _recessive_ gene are guaranteed to have children who also express that gene. But even if both parents express a dominant gene, their children might not. It’s not surprising, by the way, that lactose tolerance would be dominant over lactose intolerance. A gene for producing a particular protein (such as lactase or melanin) is generally dominant over a gene for not producing that protein. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/35 "2002-08-06T18:05:22Z")
Well, if anything, haven’t we established that drinking other milk was a ‘decision’ by rational thinking peoples, rather than some kindergarten approach to trying new foods? ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/36 "2002-08-06T18:30:22Z")
**Philster** , you presume to determine the behavior of all of the human species regarding adopting food on the basis of one, entirely conjectural, set of circumstances surrounding drinking milk well over 10,000 years ago? The “kindergarten approach” you mention was put forth by a number of French and American historians, who were trying to figure out why people starved when there was food all around them. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/37 "2002-08-06T18:40:31Z")
**Chronos** , what you’re saying is technically true, but mostly irrelevant. Obviously, if neither parent carries a gene, the child, barring mutations, will also not do so. But a dominant gene has many more chances of expressing itself. Here are the possible cases. (Let T = Tolerant, the dominant gene; I = Intolerant, recessive) One parent is TI, the other is II. Possibilities are TI, TI, II, II One parent is TT, the other is II. Possibilities are TI, TI, TI, TI One parent is TI, the other is TI. Possibilities are TT, TI, IT, II One parent is TT, the other is TI. Possbilities are TT, TI, TT, TI See how the dominant gene spreads under all circumstances as soon as it is introduced into a population? And I believe it is unusual for a gene that is universal in a population (as the I gene was until the last 5000 or so years, barring mutations) to be recessive. Not unheard of, but unusual. And **Philster** , yes, I certainly hope that despite some of the juvenile comments people see trying new foods as rational responses to shortages. I think that whoever these unnamed historians that **partly\_warmer** is quoting are incorrect. Go back to Harris for lengthy studies of how food choices are rational to individual cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/38 "2002-08-06T18:50:21Z")
Someone is misunderstanding me: “Hey, Og, I dare you to drink that”. -Kindergarten approach to solving riddle. Large masses of people dying because they wouldn’t try ‘food’ that was around them: Not disputed. Herding cattle/animals leading to domestication and an eventual renewable food source: rational decisions by intelligent people (not ALL people at all times). Gradual processes equivelant to conscious decision by group(s). ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/39 "2002-08-06T19:34:43Z")
**Philster** , Apologies. And agreement that eating new food might well have been on a dare. **Exapno** , have you read Harris? From your tone, I’d guess so. In terms of the historians I was referring to, it would take me hours to find the citations. I was merely trying to present the facts as I remembered them in good faith. What I note is that rather than address either of the historical situations I mentioned, you’ve chosen to make your argument by an appeal to authority, which is recognized in formal logic as fallacious reasoning. Attack my premises, or attack my reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515/40 "2002-08-06T21:55:24Z")
Um, **partly\_warmer** , you’re the one who brought up the “French and American” historians as backing for your claims. BTW, I was not referring to any of your posts when I mentioned juvenile comments. If that’s what set you off, then it is a misunderstanding. I merely said of you that I thought your sources were incorrect. Harris, many of whose books I have on my shelves or have read elsewhere, wrote specifically on the OPs subject of why we drink milk, so it is completely in keeping with this Board to cite him as a source. That’s what I thought we did around here rather than spew out “facts as I remember them.” However, it also happens to be true that much of his writing is on the subject of why cultures eat certain foods and shun perfectly edible others, which is of relevance to the ongoing hijack. It is his contention that doing so is always a perfectly rational response to local conditions For example, he notes that the Chinese historically kept pigs, who were efficient garbage eaters who did not need lots of extra food or extra room in areas that had high population densities, unlike grazing animals. But pigs are not milkable, so they never turned to dairy as a food source. The Indians, on the other hand, did exploit cattle for milk but not as a meat source. It’s hard to boil down a 20-page chapter in _Cannibals and Kings_ to a sound bite, but: > [@](#): > > Instead of milking their traction animals, the Chinese slaughtered their pigs. They settled for a little less animal protein in the form of meat than they could have in the form of milk - had they used the cow rather than the pig in the scavenger niche. But in India: > [@](#): > > the traction animal and the scavenger had to be one and the same species. And it had to be cattle… But since I basically agree with **Philster** ’s summary, which you’ve already also agreed to, I don’t think we really have an argument going here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-we-figure-out-that-cows-milk-would-be-good-for-us/122515.md?page=3)