# How did you stop being a 'Nice Guy'? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910 "2013-02-20T21:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/21 "2013-02-22T18:39:15Z")
Very understanding friends told me what I was doing, and I stopped. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/22 "2013-02-22T19:02:02Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Hmmm…Let me think of an example from college. > > One day I’m walking home from class to my fraternity house. It’s winter time and I see a couple of my “nice guy” fraternity brothers shoveling a car out from one of our street side parking spots. > > “Hey msmith537!” they shout. “Give us a hand!” > > “Sure!” I said, and swaggared over to the car. > > Recognizing the sorority sticker on the back windshield, I immediately whip out my johnson and wrote our fraternity letters in the snow on her hood in urine (which as it happens, is also one of our fraternity colors). > > “What are you doing!” They shouted, horrified. “That’s not cool!” > > “You know what’s not cool?” I replied. “You two idiots out here digging this bitch’s car out of OUR LOT like a couple of parking lot valets while she’s across the street at a rival fraternity house blowing her boyfriend.” > So that’s one way to not be a “nice guy”. … and that pee-spraying frat boy grew up… …to work in middle management. And now you know… the rest of the story. Good _day._ ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/23 "2013-02-22T19:40:48Z")
> [@colander](#): > > … and that pee-spraying frat boy grew up… > > …to work in middle management. > > And now you know… the rest of the story. > > - And you’re Mark Zuckerberg? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/24 "2013-02-22T19:48:35Z")
I’m a guy who happens to be nice. I apologize. My girlfriend seems to like it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/25 "2013-02-22T20:02:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And you’re Mark Zuckerberg? Dude… pretty sure middle management is more despised than Mark Zuckerberg. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/26 "2013-02-22T20:27:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Dude… pretty sure middle management is more despised than Mark Zuckerberg. > > 😉 Would it make a difference if I was a middle manager in a company that feeds starving children and unites orphans with their long lost parents while investing in AIDS research? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/27 "2013-02-22T20:34:40Z")
I’ll repeat the baseball analogy I’ve posted here before. For a “Nice Guy,” hanging around with a woman who doesn’t love you in hopes that she’ll change her mind is like sitting in the front row at Yankee Stadium every night, hoping the manager will suddenly notice you and put YOU in the starting lineup. It’s never going to happen. You already KNOW it’s not going to happen. Once you accept that, you have to ask yourself, “Is it fun to go to these ballgames?” If it’s fun, keep doing it, and try to keep your fantasies under wraps. But if you spend 3 hours every night grumbling, “Why do the Yankees have that jerk A-Rod at 3rd base, when they could have a swell guy like me,” well, you’re just making yourself miserable. Stop going to ballgames. In the same way, a Nice Guy should ask, “Is it fun to have lunch or go on casual outings with this girl I’m madly in love with?” If it is fun, keep doing it, and try to keep your fantasies in check. But if you spend every minute thinking, “Why is she dating those other jerks when she could have a decent guy like ME,” then cut her out of your life. You’re making yourelf needlessly miserable. Here’s what a baseball fan has to grasp: the Yankees don’t CARE whether you’re a nice guy and they don’t care if A-Rod is a nice guy. They need certain things in a 3rd baseman; A-Rod has them (well, not lately) and you don’t. No matter how nice you may be, you lack qualities the Yankees think are vital. Well, like it or not, no matter how nice you may be, a woman may need things you don’t have. There’s no point in resenting her or the men she DOES choose as lovers, just as there’s no point resenting the Yankees for not signing you. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/28 "2013-02-22T20:38:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Would it make a difference if I was a middle manager in a company that feeds starving children and unites orphans with their long lost parents while investing in AIDS research? And are you?.. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/29 "2013-02-22T20:44:58Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > **Incubus** , I feel like there is a misconception held by certain people that women prefer men who are abusive. For one, the kinds of males who are shy or passive may also be the studious introvert who misreads jokes and teasing as abuse. Same type of guy may see sports fans and jocks as overly aggressive. He may also fail to recognize that some women prefer take-charge types; cocky guys can be a prize, too. Female fans of the more assertive guy may thrive on and instigate the drama that often accompanies passionate relationships. And I think one characteristic of “nice guys” is that they label any behavior more aggressive than their own as abusive, which is their excuse for not doing it. They can’t distinguish asking a woman out from hitting on her. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/30 "2013-02-22T20:50:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And are you?.. I don’t know. Probably. It’s a huge financial services company. They invest in all kinds of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/31 "2013-02-22T21:02:46Z")
I tried it a couple of different ways. I tried being the nice guy who was kind, respectful, phony, and distant. I saw my friends being blatantly lewd and I thought they were awful. I thought men were supposed to be respectful of women, right? It turned out that my definition of “respectful,” was to be an asexual dweeb or celibate monk. I thought it was wrong to display an interest in women. People just thought I was homosexual. Then I tried it the opposite way. I figured, girls like bullies who treat them like garbage, right? So I went around being hateful and cruel to everyone I met. I was aggressive. I threatened people. I had a girl call the cops because she thought I was stalking her. I never meant to really hurt anyone, but my experience in life up to that point had made it clear that bullies and criminals get the girl, so I couldn’t figure out what I was doing wrong. At least nobody thought I was gay anymore. After a few years, some counseling, and a bunch of antidepressants, I just stopped caring. I still tried to date girls, but I did not go out of my way to be nice in a way that was phony or fake. I wore what I wanted, did what I wanted, and stopped being ashamed of myself. I turns out that when people said “Just be yourself,” that’s what they were talking about. It just took me a long time to accept myself the way that I was. I wasn’t mean or cruel, but if a person didn’t like me for who I was I wasn’t going to give a shit, either. And when I just let myself be natural, instead of trying to project a persona, that’s when I met my wife. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/32 "2013-02-22T21:09:35Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t know. Probably. It’s a huge financial services company. They invest in all kinds of stuff. Meh… I work at a place that tortures and kills disturbing numbers of lab animals. I’m told it’s all in the name of science and finding cures to diseases and improving the lives of mankind. The latter helps me sleep at night. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/33 "2013-02-22T21:14:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And I think one characteristic of “nice guys” is that they label any behavior more aggressive than their own as abusive, which is their excuse for not doing it. They can’t distinguish asking a woman out from hitting on her. In the other related thread, someone made the flat statement “Women aren’t attracted to nice.” That’s ludicrous. Women aren’t attracted to men who perform favors in hopes of earning sex. But nice men? We love them. We fantasize about them. We swoon over firemen who carry kitties out of a burning home. We’re crazy over men who turn all mushy over babies and puppies. We love the guys who will stop and change a flat for a stranger, help old ladies with their groceries, guys who lose on purpose so kids can win a game. Videos of military homecomings and coaches who put the special kid in the game go viral in minutes. Men who jump onto the tracks, punch out a shark, exit the floating plane last… nice guys are catnip. Our heroes are not only nice, they are self-sacrificing and they favor the underdog. That’s what I’ve been thinking each time this topic has come up. Assertive behavior, a strong voice, a loud laugh, willingness to lead the meeting, a love of sports, tendency to tease or roughhouse aren’t signs of a jerk. The same guys are just as nice to kittens, puppies, and old ladies. They lift heavy things for others, buy flowers on Valentine’s Day, give foot rubs; they go downtown. They hold the door open, too. About the only thing these guys don’t do is stay underfoot if they aren’t wanted. Maybe they don’t stay on the phone for two hours listening to a girl friend whine about a fight she had with her boyfriend. Maybe they don’t hover, maybe they don’t pester her with five texts each day to ask how her day is going. But we’re not giving it up left and right to guys who are mean to us. That’s a myth. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/34 "2013-02-22T21:27:23Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And you’re Mark Zuckerberg? Maybe I am. Or maybe I’m a homeless migrant worker. Maybe I’m the guy who invented using clamshell packaging for produce. Maybe I’m the damn Zodiac killer. Funny thing is that it hasn’t really come up. Maybe that is because I don’t go around posting triumphant tales of how one time I pissed up a woman’s car. Or maybe it’s ghosts! ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/35 "2013-02-22T21:29:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And I think one characteristic of “nice guys” is that they label any behavior more aggressive than their own as abusive, which is their excuse for not doing it. They can’t distinguish asking a woman out from hitting on her. I think this is what Nietzsche was talking about when he talked about “slave morality”. Re-characterizing your own weakness as “virtue” and others’ strength as “vice”. In dating, there is a difference between being “nice” and being “good”. Niceness is done from a position of weakness – first considering rejection as a bad thing and being as inoffensive as possible to try to avoid that. Goodness is done from a position of strength – wanting a relationship and trying to get it, but accepting that you have to consider other people’s desires as well. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/36 "2013-02-22T21:37:04Z")
Became an elegant lady. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/37 "2013-02-22T21:46:10Z")
I killed an actual nice guy and feasted on his flesh during a waning crescent moon. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/38 "2013-02-22T21:55:08Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Maybe I am. Or maybe I’m a homeless migrant worker. Maybe I’m the guy who invented using clamshell packaging for produce. Maybe I’m the damn Zodiac killer. > > Funny thing is that it hasn’t really come up. Maybe that is because I don’t go around posting triumphant tales of how one time I pissed up a woman’s car. > > Or maybe it’s ghosts! Maybe no one cares.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/39 "2013-02-22T22:12:31Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m a guy who happens to be nice. I apologize. My girlfriend seems to like it. As has been stated, there’s a difference between a “nice guy” and a guy that’s nice. Similar to the difference between a “tough guy” and a guy that is tough. One’s projecting an image, one simply is. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/40 "2013-02-22T22:17:49Z")
I definitely have to rethink my image of ‘nice guy’. Apparently it really means guys who are not very nice, and downright creepy. It doesn’t match anyone I know that I would have considered a nice guy, except maybe I’ve never seen that side of them. The guys I thought were nice guys were mainly shy and unassertive, knew it, and mostly ended with nice girls, basically shy and unassertive as well. Unless ‘nice girl’ means something else also. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910.md?page=3)