# How did you stop being a 'Nice Guy'? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910 "2013-02-20T21:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/41 "2013-02-22T22:23:04Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > In the other related thread, someone made the flat statement “Women aren’t attracted to nice.” That’s ludicrous. Women aren’t attracted to men who perform favors in hopes of earning sex. But nice men? We love them. We fantasize about them. We swoon over firemen who carry kitties out of a burning home. We’re crazy over men who turn all mushy over babies and puppies. We love the guys who will stop and change a flat for a stranger, help old ladies with their groceries, guys who lose on purpose so kids can win a game. Videos of military homecomings and coaches who put the special kid in the game go viral in minutes. Men who jump onto the tracks, punch out a shark, exit the floating plane last… nice guys are catnip. Our heroes are not only nice, they are self-sacrificing and they favor the underdog. > > That’s what I’ve been thinking each time this topic has come up. Assertive behavior, a strong voice, a loud laugh, willingness to lead the meeting, a love of sports, tendency to tease or roughhouse aren’t signs of a jerk. The same guys are just as nice to kittens, puppies, and old ladies. They lift heavy things for others, buy flowers on Valentine’s Day, give foot rubs; they go downtown. They hold the door open, too. About the only thing these guys don’t do is stay underfoot if they aren’t wanted. Maybe they don’t stay on the phone for two hours listening to a girl friend whine about a fight she had with her boyfriend. Maybe they don’t hover, maybe they don’t pester her with five texts each day to ask how her day is going. But we’re not giving it up left and right to guys who are mean to us. That’s a myth. QFT. Listen to this, guys! My secret: I clean the toilets. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/42 "2013-02-22T22:25:06Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > I think this is what Nietzsche was talking about when he talked about “slave morality”. Re-characterizing your own weakness as “virtue” and others’ strength as “vice”. > > In dating, there is a difference between being “nice” and being “good”. Niceness is done from a position of weakness – first considering rejection as a bad thing and being as inoffensive as possible to try to avoid that. Goodness is done from a position of strength – wanting a relationship and trying to get it, but accepting that you have to consider other people’s desires as well. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what he was talking about. I think a lot of “nice” guys go even further and think “hitting” on a girl at all is a bad thing. Like the only appropriate way to meet a woman is to admire her from afar, befriend her over a period of years, eventually it will blossom into romance and then you’ll get married forever! So they view the guy who goes up to her and says “hi…would you like to get a cup of coffee?” as some sort of “jerk”. > [@Troppus](#): > > That’s what I’ve been thinking each time this topic has come up. Assertive behavior, a strong voice, a loud laugh, willingness to lead the meeting … Ergo…middle management. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/43 "2013-02-22T22:29:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I definitely have to rethink my image of ‘nice guy’. Apparently it really means guys who are not very nice, and downright creepy. It doesn’t match anyone I know that I would have considered a nice guy, except maybe I’ve never seen that side of them. The guys I thought were nice guys were mainly shy and unassertive, knew it, and mostly ended with nice girls, basically shy and unassertive as well. Unless ‘nice girl’ means something else also. I know one nice guy who married a nice girl. They’ve been married for 30 years, and he is miserable. She might be also. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/44 "2013-02-22T22:37:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I know one nice guy who married a nice girl. They’ve been married for 30 years, and he is miserable. She might be also. Google ‘miserable’ and the first 10 hits are people that have been married 30 years or more. I kid, I kid. But when you meet someone married for that long, remind him that if he killed her on their wedding night, he’d be out by now. Again, I kid, I kid. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/45 "2013-02-23T00:08:18Z")
We’ve been married longer than them, and are far from miserable. However, neither of us are wishy-washy. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/46 "2013-02-23T01:51:19Z")
I read an article that explained that “nice guys” aren’t really nice because they are only nice to hot girls, and only because they expect sex in return. I realized that this was what I was doing, and stopped. I wonder if the guys **msmith537** talked about, who were digging out a sorority girl’s car, dig out cars for old women, or other men? ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/47 "2013-02-23T02:25:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I know one nice guy who married a nice girl. They’ve been married for 30 years, and he is miserable. She might be also. > **[No More Mr. Nice Guy | A Plan for Love, Sex, Dating & Career](https://www.drglover.com/no-more-mr-nice-guy.html)** > > Information regarding the Nice Guy Syndrome and Dr. Robert Glover's proven plan for breaking through and getting the love, sex and career you want. From the “No More Mr Nice Guy” site - this might explain why he would be miserable - Statements about their partners: > [@](#): > > “How come I always seem to give so much more than I get?” > “All I want is to be appreciated. Is that asking too much?” > “I can never do it right.” > “She’s always mad.” > “When will it be my turn?” > “She never wants to have sex anymore.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/48 "2013-02-23T02:43:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But when you meet someone married for that long, remind him that if he killed her on their wedding night, he’d be out by now. > > Again, I kid, I kid. The difference is he would be free! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/49 "2013-02-23T02:49:15Z")
Just did a New Posts search and got these sequential threads: _How did you stop being a ‘Nice Guy’?_ _Knife Fighting Grip and Technique_ ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/50 "2013-02-23T03:26:08Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > [No More Mr. Nice Guy | A Plan for Love, Sex, Dating & Career](http://www.drglover.com/no-more-mr-nice-guy.html) > From the “No More Mr Nice Guy” site - this might explain why he would be miserable - Statements about their partners: Does this Glover guy know you’re in love with him? Not that I’m judging… ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/51 "2013-02-23T04:14:24Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Does this Glover guy know you’re in love with him? Not that I’m judging… I just think he knows a lot about the “Nice Guy Syndrome” and how to overcome it. BTW he has a forum with 430,000+ posts… I haven’t even got one star though (many have 5 stars). ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/52 "2013-02-23T06:36:32Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > Let me clarify: when I say “Nice Guy” I’m referring to guys who think they are a nice guy for doing stuff like holding the door open for a woman they like/doing them favors/being unable or unwilling to communicate their romantic interest/complaining about being “friendzoned” etc. > > Being nice in the benign sense is implicit- I would assume people think of themselves as nice by default and wouldn’t define themselves by such a vague and watered down ajective. I don’t read your OP as saying that you became a bastard that women then chased. However, I define a “nice guy” as one that isn’t an egotistical bastard that women seem to go go for ( at least the ones I wanted to be with ); someone that cares about how other people feel and tries to be considerate. I also had my share of women wanting me that I had no attraction to. I certainly don’t consider a nice guy to be one that whines a lot. I also don’t consider having good manners makes anyone a nice guy- just someone with good manners. For years I too wondered why women seem to go for bastards, then a female friend explained to me that just because a woman is attractive and sexy etc it does not mean that they are “nice” people, so bitches attracted to bastards. Since then, I stopped worrying about it and eventually met a “nice” woman that liked me too. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/53 "2013-02-23T08:44:23Z")
I quit being a “Nice Guy” when I realized that indulging my grouchy inner curmudgeon got me laid just as much[sup]\*[/sup] and involved way less emotional investment. - i.e. not at all, but whatever ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/54 "2013-02-23T11:44:19Z")
I really despise this meme. Get back to me when “nice girls” are being villified as much as “nice guys” are. Some people think that being nice to a person of the opposite sex will lead to them being seen as a more acceptable partner. What is wrong with that, exactly? Why is it that when men do this it’s just another form of male creepiness, but when women do it it’s normal? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/55 "2013-02-23T13:18:39Z")
The women’s auxiliary of the Nice Guy club is the “Men Can’t Handle a Strong Women” bitches. In both cases, its blaming traditional gender roles (which society only superficially observed anyway) for sticking them in the rut of their own making. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/56 "2013-02-23T13:23:58Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > Some people think that being nice to a person of the opposite sex will lead to them being seen as a more acceptable partner. What is wrong with that, exactly? There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a nice person. But if someone is a “Nice Guy” they’re not a genuinely nice person. It depends on the motivation involved. If you’re _only_ being “nice” so that “the opposite sex [i.e. hot girls] will see you as a more acceptable partner”, then usually they can pick up on that fakeness or clinginess and then run like hell. > [@Molesworth](#): > > Why is it that when men do this it’s just another form of male creepiness, but when women do it it’s normal? “Nice Guy” syndrome is usually related to guys trying to get in the pants of an uninterested woman by pretending to be actually nice when he wouldn’t do those nice things without his ulterior motive. I’d say that IME it’s extremely rare for a woman to be the female equivalent of this. Have you _ever_ met a woman who is creepily hanging around a male friend or acquaintance for years on end, and being a “nice” person to him by basically being a doormat, just in hopes that eventually he will fall for her even though he has given no indications that he will ever do that? I’m sure it happens, but it’s not as common. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/57 "2013-02-23T13:35:28Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > > [@Molesworth 2](#): > > > > Why is it that when men do this it’s just another form of male creepiness, but when women do it it’s normal? > > Have you _ever_ met a woman who is creepily hanging around a male friend or acquaintance for years on end, and being a “nice” person to him by basically being a doormat, just in hopes that eventually he will fall for her even though he has given no indications that he will ever do that? I’m sure it happens, but it’s not as common. Too late to edit my post, so I just want to add that I’ve known one or two women who might sort of fit that description, but they’re usually seen as just sad and pathetic, and definitely not normal. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/58 "2013-02-23T13:39:31Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > I really despise this meme. > > Get back to me when “nice girls” are being villified as much as “nice guys” are. > > Some people think that being nice to a person of the opposite sex will lead to them being seen as a more acceptable partner. What is wrong with that, exactly? Not sure where this latest incarnation of the “nice guys finish last in romance” meme came from. The internet, maybe. Viable habitat for guys who express themselves better in writing than in real life. It sure wasn’t the John Hughes movies everyone loves to reference when these complaints bubble up. Ducky, Brian, and Cameron don’t get the girl they’ve doted on, performed favors for, lent shoulders to or followed around like sad puppies. When the credits roll on nearly every film with the same theme, the underdog is left alone and watching wistfully from the wings. I despise it, too, but it’s self-perpetuating. No matter how many times women explain that we only date nice men who are good people, some bitter guy will show up and insist “Not true. Women only date jerks, assholes, and abusers.” Not true. The “nice guy’s” perception is skewed because he’s drunk on sour grapes. If a guy’s first instinct when he sees \*his woman \*find happiness with another guy is to tear down both her decision making ability and the rival’s character, he isn’t nice. If a guy keeps setting his sights on women who clearly prefer another type of man then lashing out in his disappointment, he’s not the nice guy he claims to be. He’s a judgmental asshole convinced he deserves a certain “caliber” of woman simply because he makes himself available 24 hours each day to serve her whims. If a woman hasn’t shown romantic interest in a guy, then placing himself underfoot 24 hours each day, showering her with compliments, listening to her recount the daily minutia of her existence on late night phone calls, and performing favors with the clear intention of attempting to manipulate sex out of her doesn’t work. If she doesn’t want to have sex with a guy before he changes her oil, she isn’t going to want to after, either. When the motivations for performing favors are this transparent, it’s creepy, sleazy, disingenuous. It’s anything but nice. > [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > Get back to me when “nice girls” are being villified as much as “nice guys” are. “Nice girl” has had a double meaning for at least 100 years. When guys say it, they tend to mean she’s frigid. When others say it, it’s a patronizing pat on the head from conservative types who don’t think it’s crass to speculate on the state of her hymen. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/59 "2013-02-23T15:46:31Z")
Someone can be nice and a guy, or nice and a girl, but if they’re being defined as “nice guy” or “nice girl” it means they don’t have any other redeeming/memorable features. If you were being set up on a blind date and you ask about the date, and all that your matchmaker can tell you is “Well… he’s nice…” or if you come back from a date and someone asked you to describe the date and you can only respond “He’s a nice guy…” then that date has completely failed to make an impression on you. EVERYONE is nice on a date. It’s the minimal effort that someone can put in. To snag a second date, you have to be interesting, charming, funny, handsome, etc. Just being inoffensive doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910/60 "2013-02-23T16:15:06Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > I used to resent guys who acted abusive toward women and didnt understand why women wanted to be with them. So are you more accepting of abuse of women now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-did-you-stop-being-a-nice-guy/650910.md?page=4)