# How do Athiests Stack Up? (Morally)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774 "2008-09-29T23:49:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/21 "2008-09-30T11:24:21Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > While some religious people will kill for their beliefs, I would be surprised to find that the average serial killer, say, or rapist, had any belief in god. You may be basing this view on the popular image of the serial killer as a person with a messianic complex. I can’t say how accurate that view is. But I don’t understand lumping other criminals like rapists into the same category. That’s a groundless assumption. There are lots of people who commit those crimes and it only makes sense that most of them have some form of theistic view in a country where about 80 percent of the people are Christian. [Violent crime is down in recent years](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm), but [church attendance is basically flat](http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/22 "2008-09-30T11:32:33Z")
There’s a positive link between intelligence and income. There’s a positive link between intelligence and atheism. There’s a reverse link between income and criminal activity. So yes, it is most likely that atheists in the modern day US are less likely to commit crime. However, the key ingredient seems to be intelligence more than it is atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/23 "2008-09-30T12:23:23Z")
> [@WoodenTaco](#): > > That’s a pretty weak cite. Most of the statistics lack citations, and the ones that do are grossly misleading. The citations are at the bottom of the article. > [@](#): > > The relative effects of the two religiosity indicators employed in this study complement the findings of previous research by reporting statistically significant, weak to moderately weak inverse relations between religiosity and fifteen indicators of self-reported delinquency. However, the predicted probability of involvement in delinquency is substantially less for the religious than the irreligious, and for many forms of delinquency, the strongly religious were predicted to have almost no likelihood of involvement [Cite.](http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=118016) > [@](#): > > This paper reports two studies, one of university students and one of high school students, which indicate support for the hypothesis that lack of religious involvement is related to anti-social behavior. [Cite.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/492886) > [@](#): > > Dr. Fagan’s citations on family stability rely on self-reporting of happiness, a technique which was outdated decades ago and has obvious methodological flaws. What is the obvious flaw in finding out if people are happy by asking them? Could you suggest some objective test for this? Perhaps suicide and depression can be used as measurements of happiness. Both are negatively correlated with religious practice. At any rate, your assertion that the statistics on family stability are based on self-report is incorrect. See the citations regarding lower divorce rates among the religously active, keeping in mind the correlation between parental divorce and higher rates of negative behaviors in children. Regards. Shodan ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/24 "2008-09-30T13:05:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > At any rate, your assertion that the statistics on family stability are based on self-report is incorrect. See the citations regarding lower divorce rates among the religously active, keeping in mind the correlation between parental divorce and higher rates of negative behaviors in children. > > Regards. > Shodan I invite you to look at the statistics at religioustolerance. org - where they’ve come up with different numbers on divorce > [@](#): > > Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience. “[http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr\_dira.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm)” They also note the following numbers on divorce rates from the same site: Jewish: 30% Born-Again Christians: 27% Other Christian: 24% Atheist and Agnostic: 21% Let’s look at the U.S. compared to other developed democracies as well. I doubt you’d want to argue that, generally speaking, the U.S. is substantially more religious in outlook than say, Australia, France, New Zealand, Canada etc.., Given your idea that religion increases ‘morality’ and would hence reduce crime (assuming that criminal acts are immoral) we should see lower crime rates in the U.S. than in these other places. Except we don’t. And we do notice that lethal crime is far more prevalent in the U.S. then in more atheistic nations. What about other things often thrown into the ‘morals’ bin. STDs in teenagers and teenage pregnancies. Teen pregnancies in the U.S. are at 1671 births per million. In NZ (the next highest western democracy) they are at 972 per million. A fairly large difference. (sourced at [nationmaster.com](http://nationmaster.com)) More cites? > [@](#): > > Adolescent childbearing is more common in the United States (22% of women reported having had a child before age 20) than in Great Britain (15%), Canada (11%), France (6%) and Sweden (4%) from [Differences in Teenage Pregnancy Rates Among Five Developed Countries: The Roles of Sexual Activity and Contraceptive Use | Guttmacher Institute](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3324401.html) ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/25 "2008-09-30T13:27:31Z")
Does anyone have any relaible statistics on the relative distribution of faiths (or lack thereof) among inmates in the US prison system? I would think that it would parallel the distribution in the general population if faith/agnostisicm/atheism were morally neutral. Any skewing from the general population may indicate a lack of moral fibre among those following that specific philosophy/religion. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/26 "2008-09-30T13:35:08Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Yes, it is. For example, we may use the group of things not red to examine the effects of red rags on a bull. If a bull reacts similarly to red things as it does to not red things, we might conclude that it’s reacting to the movement, and not the redness. I am sure if you consider this further, you will see that we are not using the set of things not-red to study the effects of _red rags_. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/27 "2008-09-30T13:36:09Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Does anyone have any relaible statistics on the relative distribution of faiths (or lack thereof) among inmates in the US prison system? I would think that it would parallel the distribution in the general population if faith/agnostisicm/atheism were morally neutral. > > Any skewing from the general population may indicate a lack of moral fibre among those following that specific philosophy/religion. Don’t you suppose there are significant pressures in prison to experience a religious preference, or is that just another Hollywood stereotype? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/28 "2008-09-30T13:59:58Z")
This is a difficult question. Generally speaking, there are certain universalities that pervade most human societies’ codes of ethics. It is wrong to kill. (At least from your own group, most of the time) It is wrong to steal. (At least from your own group) It is wrong to rape. (Nearly all the time) Nearly everything else is quibbling over the protocol and circumstances of these events. They are derived from the direct observation of the suffering they cause. All other “morals” and “ethics” are derived from an external religious source. For example, Christians often have major issues regarding sex and it’s practice. Other faiths don’t care all that much about that issue at all but take extreme care about what one eats, or how one grooms their hair. What you would have to determine to answer this question is figure out if an atheistic population violates the big three tenants more than a religious one. You would also have exclude societally approved exceptions to those rules, like war or starvation. You would also have to exclude political motivations, as those could easily fall into that gray area. As others have already noted, there is a correlation between atheism and intelligence. Intelligent, thoughtful people would, on the whole, be generally more cognizant of their actions on a daily basis. So It would be a safe hypothesis to state that they would be less likely to engage in blatant criminal behaviour than religious people. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/29 "2008-09-30T14:01:43Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I suspect that most athiests are very intelligent people, who have a highly developed moral sense. So, probably, most people who are athiestd probably have a very low rate of criminal activity. How do they compare with religious types? Anyone have any statistics o this? > I’d be curious to know what the incarceration rate for athiests is-versus religious. I have read that better educated people are more likely to be atheists. I would venture that better educated people have slightly lower tendency to commit crimes, since they would have on average a better economic chances. I have no data on moral sense at all, but I suspect the difference between atheists and religious people is minimal. Atheists may think their morals through a bit more, though. The religious, whatever they might think, do not get their morals from God or the bible; they get them from themselves and their environment, just like everybody else. By the way: the correct spelling is “atheist”, not “athiest”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/30 "2008-09-30T14:11:31Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > I invite you to look at the statistics at religioustolerance. org - where they’ve come up with different numbers on divorce We were discussing those with high levels of religious practice, not merely religious affiliation. It is rather hard to argue that religion causes people to engage in one kind of behavior if it doesn’t cause them to do anything else - like go to church. And the same problem exists with your cites about the US pregnancy rates vs. other developed countries as with the atheist countries who have murdered large numbers of their citizens. If you are going to argue “the US is more religious than Japan and has higher pregnancy rates”, then you can argue with equal plausibility “the Soviet Union was less religious than the US and killed some tens of millions of its own people”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/31 "2008-09-30T14:23:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We were discussing those with high levels of religious practice, not merely religious affiliation. It is rather hard to argue that religion causes people to engage in one kind of behavior if it doesn’t cause them to do anything else - like go to church. > > And the same problem exists with your cites about the US pregnancy rates vs. other developed countries as with the atheist countries who have murdered large numbers of their citizens. If you are going to argue “the US is more religious than Japan and has higher pregnancy rates”, then you can argue with equal plausibility “the Soviet Union was less religious than the US and killed some tens of millions of its own people”. > > Regards, > Shodan Not really. One is making a comparison between religiosity and adherence to a pervasive “moral” edict by the _general population_; the other is making a correlation between _governmental actions_ and religiosity. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/32 "2008-09-30T14:33:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And the same problem exists with your cites about the US pregnancy rates vs. other developed countries as with the atheist countries who have murdered large numbers of their citizens. If you are going to argue “the US is more religious than Japan and has higher pregnancy rates”, then you can argue with equal plausibility “the Soviet Union was less religious than the US and killed some tens of millions of its own people”. So how much of that do you attribute to the religiosity of the United States and how much do you attribute to the immunity of the U.S. to the mid/late 20th century political upheavals? I would say the wars and revolutions of the 20th century have a lot more to do with the body count than atheism/religion. I would also say that the OP was asking about more common criminal activities than genocides, but when the only tool you have to beat people over the head with is a hammer and sickle… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/33 "2008-09-30T15:24:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Never heard of Hayden Panettiere before…then Google…then DAMN! My wife introduced me to her while explaining that she was editing her list of people she may sleep (if given the opportunity) without repercussions. She chose wisely. Back to the thread topic: Ifind it alternately amusing and vexing to participate in threads like these, given, oh, the Inquisition, or the story of Elisha & the 42 she-bears. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/34 "2008-09-30T16:02:33Z")
I find that all these debates degenerate into “No True Scotsmanship.” The debaters who want faith to be an indicator of morality can always say that persons violating that code are not good exemplars of that faith. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/35 "2008-09-30T16:29:33Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I am sure if you consider this further, you will see that we are not using the set of things not-red to study the effects of _red rags_. A good point. Let’s compare things red to the things not red across the board. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/36 "2008-10-01T04:13:31Z")
Forgive my intrusion into your squabble about who is the better person. 1, Those who believe in God. 2. Those who don’t believe in God. It seems that some believe a Christian might/should be a better person. That would require making judgment upon another(sin) I am a Christian and a sinner. I believe in the Cross and everything it stands for. And I am still a sinner! For those of you that don’t understand that, I will pray for you. I am at peace with the Lord. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/37 "2008-10-01T07:40:34Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Forgive my intrusion into your squabble about who is the better person. > > 1, Those who believe in God. > 2. Those who don’t believe in God. > > It seems that some believe a Christian might/should be a better person. > That would require making judgment upon another(sin) Judging others is something that Christianity has always been brutally enthusiastic about. Basically, you are ( unintentionally I’m sure ) arguing for the inferior morality of Christians ( assuming that one buys the idea that sin = immoral of course ) by claiming the sinfulness of something that is the norm for them. > [@Gbro](#): > > I am a Christian and a sinner. I believe in the Cross and everything it stands for. And I am still a sinner! Well, yes. Christianity doesn’t tend to produce good behavior from it’s followers, and it doesn’t stand for good things anyway IMHO. Is there supposed to be a point to this sort of claim ? > [@Gbro](#): > > For those of you that don’t understand that, I will pray for you. > I am at peace with the Lord. Since the “Lord” is a construct of your own imagination and egotism I’m sure you are. And prayer isn’t going to impress unbelievers. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/38 "2008-10-01T08:52:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We were discussing those with high levels of religious practice, not merely religious affiliation. It is rather hard to argue that religion causes people to engage in one kind of behavior if it doesn’t cause them to do anything else - like go to church. Well, to offer a potentially relevant data point: [Born Again Adults Less Likely to Co-Habit, Just as Likely to Divorce](http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=95). Source: [Barna.org](http://Barna.org), which is a Christian polling organization that [describes itself](http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=AboutBarna)as seeking “to use our strengths in partnership with Christian ministries and individuals to be a catalyst in moral and spiritual transformation in the United States.” ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/39 "2008-10-02T00:25:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, yes. Christianity doesn’t tend to produce good behavior from it’s followers, and it doesn’t stand for good things anyway IMHO. Is there supposed to be a point to this sort of claim ? > > Since the “Lord” is a construct of your own imagination and egotism I’m sure you are. And prayer isn’t going to impress unbelievers. I will pray for your Humble Opinion, Sir. For me the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the sins of the world is a very humbling thing. > [@](#): > > For God so lover the world that he gave his one and only son (John 3-16) We are studying the book of Romans in my church. The link will make available to the sermon I listen to . You are welcome to listen in . [http://www.nashwaukalliance.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=37459&PID=410654](http://www.nashwaukalliance.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=37459&PID=410654) ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774/40 "2008-10-02T00:40:10Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Forgive my intrusion into your squabble about who is the better person. Well, that’s what this forum is here for 🙂 > [@](#): > > 1, Those who believe in God. > 2. Those who don’t believe in God. > > It seems that some believe a Christian might/should be a better person. That would probably be religious people… Or possibly people who think people aren’t moral inherently, and need the thread of hell-fire / the awe-inspiring example of sacrifice of christ or something like that just to make the right moral judgements. I for one am extremely sceptical that that is the case. > [@](#): > > That would require making judgment upon another(sin) As far as I’m concerned, judging each other is what people do, and we should. We should take a hard critical look at each other and ourselves. > [@](#): > > I am a Christian and a sinner. I believe in the Cross and everything it stands for. And I am still a sinner! > For those of you that don’t understand that, I will pray for you. > I am at peace with the Lord. Good for you. I guess that means you should pray for me, but please don’t feel obliged. I really don’t care if you do or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-athiests-stack-up-morally/465774.md?page=3)