# How Do Chinese Write Names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 4, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332 "2009-05-04T20:41:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/21 "2009-05-05T02:07:00Z")
And in a number of the \*\*\*su words, the u bit seems to be dropped when pronounced, sometimes not. As an an example, doomo arigato gozaimasu drops the u in gozaimasu… Languages select a set of permitted sounds - it helps to have phonetic syllables to drive those sounds, and in the case of the Chinese idiograms and Japanese Kanjii, these are forced, in the Japanese as the Hirigana and Katakana. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/22 "2009-05-05T02:09:28Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > Chinese idiograms Ah-ha! _That_ is what they are: Grams (characters) idiosyncratic (unique) to China! Chinese idiograms! 😃 (Which would apparently imply the Chinese write with chromosomes…) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/23 "2009-05-05T02:38:41Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Ah-ha! _That_ is what they are: Grams (characters) idiosyncratic (unique) to China! Chinese idiograms! 😃 > > (Which would apparently imply the Chinese write with chromosomes…) They aren’t unique to Chinese, though they originated with them. The same characters are used to write Japanese (along with a couple of other character sets based on Chinese characters, but used to write words phonetically), and they used to be used for Korean and Vietnamese. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/24 "2009-05-05T02:41:03Z")
Just in case anyone gets confused, the spelling is usually “ideogram”, with “ideo” being as in “idea”. I think **Derleth** was simply making a joke with the comments about “idiosyncratic” and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/25 "2009-05-05T13:40:02Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > So is there more than one correct way to write a name? I guess like in English one could write Mark or Marc, or something along those lines, so it wouldn’t be all that different Transliteration of Arabic names into English gives great examples – consider [this old column from Cecil’s archives](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/513/how-are-you-supposed-to-spell-muammar-gaddafi-khadafy-qadhafi) about the various spellings of Moammar Khaddafi’s name. And just as Chinese speakers can choose between sound-alike characters to lampoon a Western name, alternate spellings can do the same in English: e.g. Kha **daffy** ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/26 "2009-05-05T14:46:22Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > They aren’t unique to Chinese, though they originated with them. The same characters are used to write Japanese (along with a couple of other character sets based on Chinese characters, but used to write words phonetically), and they used to be used for Korean and Vietnamese. I know that. I even mentioned that in a post in this thread. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Just in case anyone gets confused, the spelling is usually “ideogram”, with “ideo” being as in “idea”. I think **Derleth** was simply making a joke with the comments about “idiosyncratic” and so forth. Yes, as you probably realized from the smiley I used. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/27 "2009-05-05T17:51:27Z")
Japanese uses the [katakana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana) syllabary to write Western names (syllabary: think alphabet, but each “letter” stands for a full syllable instead of a consonant or vowel). Sounds are approximated within the range of Japanese phonemes. For the Arnold Schwarzenegger example above, I’d romanize アーノルド・シュワルツェネッガー as Aanorudo Shuwarutseneggaa (there’s technically no \*tse \*in Japanese, but they fudge it with a \*tsu \*plus a small _e_). Here’s a full breakdown of every character: ア a; ー long vowel mark; ノ no; ル ru; ド do; ・separator; シ shi; ュ small yu, size indicating that it modifies the shi; ワ wa; ル ru; ツ tsu; ェ small e, size indicating that it modifies the tsu; ネ ne; ッ small tsu, indicating that the next consonant is doubled; ガ ga; ー long vowel mark Further note: a “long” vowel in Japanese is literally that–a vowel that is held longer than a short one. Other than that, it’s the same sound. (Note that this applies to Tokyo, i.e., mainstream, Japanese.) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/28 "2009-05-05T18:22:19Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Transliteration of Arabic names into English gives great examples – consider [this old column from Cecil’s archives](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/513/how-are-you-supposed-to-spell-muammar-gaddafi-khadafy-qadhafi) about the various spellings of Moammar Khaddafi’s name. > > And just as Chinese speakers can choose between sound-alike characters to lampoon a Western name, alternate spellings can do the same in English: e.g. Kha **daffy** Isn’t that a bit differnt, because Mark and Marc are pronounced the same regardless of spelling but part of the problem with Gaddafi and spelling is that it uses sounds not normally used in English ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/29 "2009-05-05T18:48:42Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Eaglepower Darkfield How is it that this can never have been used for a bad guy name in one of his movies? And, dare I say it? Band name! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/30 "2009-05-05T18:54:09Z")
Try finding a Japanese speaker who can pronounce “Darryl”. It usually comes out something like “Da-wu”. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/31 "2009-05-05T19:11:22Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Try finding a Japanese speaker who can pronounce “Darryl”. It usually comes out something like “Da-wu”. It should be something like “Dariru” (English “l” and “r” both become “r” in Japanese, and the final consonant must have a vowel after it unless it is “n”). ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/32 "2009-05-05T19:23:34Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > It should be something like “Dariru” Yup, ダリル (Dariru) it is (e.g., [Darryl Strawberry](http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%80%E3%83%AA%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BB%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%83%AD%E3%83%99%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC)). ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/33 "2009-05-05T19:40:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Japanese uses the [katakana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana) syllabary to write Western names (syllabary: think alphabet, but each “letter” stands for a full syllable instead of a consonant or vowel). Sounds are approximated within the range of Japanese phonemes. Typically, but not always. The ex-pat who runs [this site](http://www.jbox.com/) is named Peter Paine. He said when he went to register his name at the local town hall, he went for a combo: pi ta in katakana and the kanji for “bread” – pronounced pain in Japanese (thanks to the Portuguese who introduced the stuff). ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/34 "2009-05-05T20:19:44Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Typically, but not always. The ex-pat who runs [this site](http://www.jbox.com/) is named Peter Paine. He said when he went to register his name at the local town hall, he went for a combo: pi ta in katakana and the kanji for “bread” – pronounced pain in Japanese (thanks to the Portuguese who introduced the stuff). 1.) That is how \*he chose \*to write his name, not how a Japanese person would have written it. 2.) \*Bread \*in Japanese is パン (_pan_), and it’s nowadays always written with those katakana (\*not \*kanji). He might have used the kanji originally used to write it, though: 麺麭 or 麪包. But a Japanese person wouldn’t write \*bread \*that way. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/35 "2009-05-05T20:19:50Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > pi ta in katakana and the kanji for “bread” – pronounced pain in Japanese (thanks to the Portuguese who introduced the stuff). There’s a kanji for bread? I’ve only ever seen it written in katakana. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/36 "2009-05-05T20:54:22Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Yes, not least because each language has its own rules about how sounds can be arranged. These rules are called the language’s phonotactics. For example, English phonotactics don’t allow the ‘ng’ sound to occur at the beginning of a word: It always has to occur after a vowel. Therefore, a Vietnamese guy named Nguyen will effectively be renamed to Nooyen when he goes to an English-speaking country. > > A better example for your question is the fact Japanese phonotactics don’t allow ‘Chris’, which happens to be my name. [According to this little online tool](http://www.jedi.k12.wi.us/japanese.html), I’d be ‘Chiisu’ in Japanese and my name would be spelled to represent _those_ sounds in Katakana, which is a syllabary (each character represents one syllable). > > [This tool](http://japanesetranslator.co.uk/your-name-in-japanese/) claims I’d be Kurisu, which makes more sense: The ‘ch’ phoneme doesn’t actually appear anywhere in my name. Either way, though, simply being ‘Chris’ is right out as far as Japanese phonotactics are concerned. That first translation is… interesting. The thing with Katakana translations of names is that it’s not really standardized, there’s not a committee that tells you your name in Japanese, it is, quite simply, whatever sounds right to you. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Japanese uses the [katakana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana) syllabary to write Western names (syllabary: think alphabet, but each “letter” stands for a full syllable instead of a consonant or vowel). Sounds are approximated within the range of Japanese phonemes. That’s debatable, it’s also considered moraic since it’s possible to have multiple kana to a syllable. Edit: Well, not debatable per se, it is a syllabary but it’s not as cut and dry “a character is a syllable” as the definition you gave would imply at first glance. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/37 "2009-05-05T21:07:44Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > That first translation is… interesting. The thing with Katakana translations of names is that it’s not really standardized, there’s not a committee that tells you your name in Japanese, it is, quite simply, whatever sounds right to you. > [snip] > That’s debatable, it’s also considered moraic since it’s possible to have multiple kana to a syllable. 1.) It may not be officially standardized, but there are common ways of Japanese-izing western names, especially famous ones, and various sounds. For instance, \*ar \*is almost certainly going to become _aa_ and not _aru_. 2.) Yes, a Japanese “syllable” is called a mora, and a syllable may be written with more than one mora. It’s debatable whether that makes the kana completely distinct from other syllabaries such that a separate term is required. I’m not getting into technical linguistics here, just trying to give people a framework for understanding written Japanese. Some background: Japanese was my foreign language in college, and I spent a semester at Tokyo’s 上智大学 (_Jouchi Daigaku_/Sophia University), living in Japan for a bit over four months. ETA: Whoops, looks like you edited as I responded. Hope this cleared things up. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/38 "2009-05-05T21:26:15Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > 1.) It may not be officially standardized, but there are common ways of Japanese-izing western names, especially famous ones, and various sounds. For instance, \*ar \*is almost certainly going to become _aa_ and not _aru_. True, but rule zero is generally “if it doesn’t sound right try something else.” (Is it me or is that rule zero for everything?) Just going by letters is almost always a bad idea, I have it on good faith that putting my last name into katakana by spelling only was one of the most grievous atrocities done to gitmo detainees (it becomes a lot easier once you hear me pronounce it). But yeah, generally certain letter combos are going to be put in a certain way because they usually work correctly that way, and if they don’t, edit it! > [@](#): > > 2.) Yes, a Japanese “syllable” is called a mora, and a syllable may be written with more than one mora. It’s debatable whether that makes the kana completely distinct from other syllabaries such that a separate term is required. I’m not getting into technical linguistics here, just trying to give people a framework for understanding written Japanese. > > Some background: Japanese was my foreign language in college, and I spent a semester at Tokyo’s 上智大学 (_Jouchi Daigaku_/Sophia University), living in Japan for a bit over four months. > > ETA: Whoops, looks like you edited as I responded. Hope this cleared things up. My original post there before I edited had a rather long explanation with mora and such, then I decided it wasn’t worth it and would probably have caused more problems than it solved so I changed it to what you saw. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332/39 "2009-05-06T14:36:30Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > True, but rule zero is generally “if it doesn’t sound right try something else.” [snip] Just going by letters is almost always a bad idea Agreed, and definitely agreed. I guess the point I was trying to make was that not every possible transliteration of someone’s name is going to be “right”–it’s not what the \*person \*thinks it should be written as, it’s what \*an average L1 speaker of Japanese \*thinks it should be written as. Take the last name “Bartel.” Some nice American with this surname starts studying Japanese and thinks that it should be written as バルテル (Baruteru). Almost certainly, their teacher will correct it to バーテル (Baateru). (That’s the sort of thing that the “\*ar \*-\> \*aa \*rather than _aru_” was meant to indicate; I forgot to specify syllable-final. It’s one of those reasonably standardized things that isn’t immediately intuitive to an L2 speaker.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-chinese-write-names/495332.md?page=1)