# How do Christians Excuse the OT God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467 "2000-08-15T17:37:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/1 "2000-08-15T17:37:16Z")
After reading this page at [religioustolerance.org](http://religioustolerance.org): [http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm\_bibl.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm) I am wondering, in all honesty, how Christians who subscribe to the “God is Love” idea reconcile the god of the Old Testament to that of the New. I’m not asking this to be provocative (well, maybe a little), but rather because I’m interested to hear how this can even be done. For those who don’t want to take the time to read the article (though I highly recommend it), here are a few of the cited examples: > [@](#): > > God is described as having created the earth, mankind, other living things, and the rest of the universe in the early chapters of Genesis. But he apparently was unable to foresee the future behavior of his creations. In particular, He did not predict the degree of wickedness that mankind would exhibit. He regretted his decision to create mankind. So he decided to commit the ultimate act of genocide, by murdering the entire human race: men, women, children, infants and newborns. God decided to kill people by drowning - a slow and painful way to die. > > Deuteronomy 7:1-2: “… the seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.” > > Elisha, a Prophet, was ridiculed by some little children who called him a name like “old baldy”. Elisha laid a curse on them in God’s name. God appears to have responded to the curse by sending two bears out of the woods who tare (tore up, killed) 42 of the little children. > > God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” to prevent him from easily giving into the requests of Moses to release his people from slavery. Because God made the Egyptian ruler resistant to the idea of freeing the Israelites, the pharaoh ignored a variety of plagues. Finally, God killed the first born of all of the humans and cattle in Egypt, except for those of the Israelites who had ritually killed a male lamb and daubed its blood over the doorposts of their homes. And these are just a few. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/2 "2000-08-15T17:43:22Z")
Do I count as a Christian? If so, I look at interpretations of God from the OT the way I look at news releases from the RNC. If not, excuse the interruption. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/3 "2000-08-15T17:52:31Z")
You can count as anything you like. However, I was really hoping to hear from those who believe that the events describing god’s actions in the OT are “biblical truth” or whatever you want to call it. In other words, assuming that god actually did the things the Bible describes, how can anyone worship him? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/4 "2000-08-15T17:57:52Z")
Kindly be civil, and capitalize God when using the word as a proper name, okay, **S** cupper? [… bowing out now …] ---
**Author:** ![Outrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9d8465/32.png) [@Outrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Outrider)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/5 "2000-08-15T18:10:22Z")
Ahem…more evidence that the OT and NT have more plot holes and inconsistency than the script of Battlefield Earth. To add one more question: Why is it that God says “Thou shalt not kill”, but it’s not a problem when people like Moses do it? Perhaps he meant: “Thou shalt not kill…unless it’s for my benefit”? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/6 "2000-08-15T18:14:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Outrider \* > \*\* > To add one more question: > > Why is it that God says “Thou shalt not kill”, but it’s not a problem when people like Moses do it? Perhaps he meant: “Thou shalt not kill…unless it’s for my benefit”? \*\* Because, **Outrider** it does _not_ say “Thou shalt not kill.” What the text (in the original Hebrew) says is “murder” not kill. Now then, what’s the difference, you ask… Killing is just that. You can kill with justifiable cause (self defense), you can kill little insects whether with cause or not. Murder, however, is the illegal killing of a human being. Thus you can kill without it being murder. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/7 "2000-08-15T18:17:18Z")
I thought his proper name was Jehova or Jaweh or some such. The capitalization of the word “God” is a tradition and it’s not my tradition. “God” is a substitute for calling the deity by name. Does that technically make it a proper noun? This probably deserves its own thread (or not), but I am of the opinion that capitalization or the lack thereof is an individual choice, reflecting the amount of reverence one has for the word. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/8 "2000-08-15T18:19:15Z")
And there is my conflict. This is one of the exact things I used to question of both my pastor and later in Seminary. The story of Job is the one that’s always screamed out to me “petty and evil”, it reminded me of the way some treat others IRL. Kinda, "watch this you can screw with this guy all you want and he still comes back… ---
**Author:** ![Outrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9d8465/32.png) [@Outrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Outrider)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/9 "2000-08-15T18:24:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*Killing is just that. You can kill with justifiable cause (self defense), you can kill little insects whether with cause or not. > > Murder, however, is the illegal killing of a human being. Thus you can kill without it being murder.\*\* Whoa…what on earth do you mean by _illegal_ killing? Illegal by whose law? The law of God? The law of the United States? Moral law? As I recall, Moses pretty much commited murder by any definition. What about all of the people who have killed in the name of God, but not in self defense? Is the fact that it was done “for” God considered to be justifiable cause? ---
**Author:** ![Outrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9d8465/32.png) [@Outrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Outrider)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/10 "2000-08-15T18:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scupper \* > \*\*I am of the opinion that capitalization or the lack thereof is an individual choice, reflecting the amount of reverence one has for the word. \*\* I agree 100% Fundamentalists: “G-d” Most people: “God” Atheists: “That guy in the cloud” Bitter atheists: “The opiate” Scientologists: “L. Ron Hubbard” ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/11 "2000-08-15T19:08:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Outrider \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Murder, however, is the illegal killing of a human being. Thus you can kill without it being murder.\*\* > > Whoa…what on earth do you mean by _illegal_ killing? Illegal\*\* You see, Jews have all these other books which provide workarounds for keeping the ten commandments. But I don’t take the OT literally, so I shouldn’t even be on this thread. D&R! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/12 "2000-08-15T19:16:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The capitalization of the word “God” is a tradition and it’s not my tradition. “God” is a substitute for calling the deity by name. Does that technically make it a proper noun? You don’t know what a proper noun is? [… shrug …] Proper Noun: “I don’t believe God exists.” (e.g., I don’t believe Uncle Fred exists.) Noun: “I don’t believe your god exists.” (e.g., I don’t believe your uncle exists.) ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/13 "2000-08-15T19:22:46Z")
Well, thanks for keeping the thread alive, anyway. Wishing I could get some answers to the question instead of grammar lessons, but I’ll take what I can get. Now, to beat my dead horse: Isn’t a substitute for a name a pronoun? (Though, to be quite honest, I’d have to say you’re correct. My bad.) “I don’t believe God, as a person, exists.” - Me, with corrected capitalization. Now somebody address the f$!%ing issue! ---
**Author:** ![Yue\_Han](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@Yue\_Han](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yue_Han)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/14 "2000-08-15T19:24:16Z")
First: Actually, people use G-d because according to Orthodox Judaism, it’s a sin to write the name of G-d and then destroy it. Now, it’s debatable that 1. g-o-d counts as the name of G-d 2. Typing it counts as writing it 3. Deletion of electronic data counts as destruction. But just to be safe, some Jews write G-d. And some Christians respectfully honor that and do the same. I’ve never heard of a fundamentalist. Secondly, my take on the G-d of the Old Testament is that it was a commando-ish sort of emeregncy measure. The OT G-d is willing to do whatever it is necessary to carry out his plan for the redemption of mankind-- including both killing people and performing miracles. If people got killed, it was bad, but it was for their ultimate salvation. Once the plan was complete, both the violence and miracles were curtailed, if not completely ended. When G-d affects the world today, it’s through people or natural processes. But I only half-believe any of this. –John ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/15 "2000-08-15T19:31:20Z")
When people talk about a god, it’s little ‘g’. When they are speaking of the Judeo-Christian god as ‘a god’ it’s still little ‘g’. If however, you are using the word ‘god’ as a name, as in “God said unto Moses…,” then it gets the capital ‘G’ just as any other entity does other than e.e. cummings and the-artist-formerly-known-as-Prince (although to be fair to the little purple guy, his symbol may _be_ a capital for all I know.) The “capitalized by convention only” rule applies to pronouns referring to God. Certain people will always write ‘His, He, and Him’ when the antecedent is God. The G-d convention is probably best explained by those who employ it, but IIRC, it comes from the idea that God’s name, once written, should never be accidentally destroyed or maligned in some way, therefore it is safer to avoid writing it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/16 "2000-08-15T20:24:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The G-d convention is probably best explained by those who employ it, but IIRC, it comes from the idea that God’s name, once written, should never be accidentally destroyed or maligned in some way, therefore it is safer to avoid writing it. If I hit the keys “g”, “o”, and “d”, then press “submit,” by all means, I have typed the word, or the name, or whatever. My bad if the monitor ever stops displaying it. But what if I open the thread multiple times, knowing that the name is going to appear on my screen? Did I “write” it? P.S. I hope that our Jewish friends here are able to conclude that I didn’t. I’d hate to have done anything that might make them feel proscribed from participating in these threads, particularly as they so often have so much to contribute. More than I do, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/17 "2000-08-15T20:28:03Z")
You know, Scupper, if the converse of the premise of your thread were posted by FriendofGod, everybody would be on his case. First off, in your first two posts, you equate the term “Christian” with only those who hold the Old Testament to be literally true in every detail. You know something? There ain’t any such animal. I know a fair sample of people who swear by the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy, and what they believe is that _unless it is obviously poetic or fictional in content_, such as a psalm or a parable of Jesus, it’s to be construed as factual. Now maybe that wasn’t quite what you intended, but that’s what I took “Bible truth” to imply. Second, there are a lot of us running around who took umbrage at that equation when Zion made it months ago, and who will I think take equal umbrage at you making it from the opposite field. My personal take is that I don’t “excuse God” at all. You don’t have to look very far today to find people who use the Bible as a convenient pedestal on which to sanctify their own prejudices. It was just as easy to blame Him for one’s crimes in O.T. times. In fact, and ironically apropos given the OP, the first such recorded incident is from the Bible. God has just caught Adam redhanded with the apple, and he says, in effect, “Just who told you to eat that apple?” Adam has a quick answer: “The **woman** whom **you** gave me, she told me to eat.” Eve just as quickly blames the serpent. A very nice case of buck passing…the emphases are mine, but “Hey, it wasn’t my idea, **she** told me to … and by the way, God, you gave her to me, so you’re partly responsible too.” As for the usage, most of the board uses a capital G on the word god as applied to the Christian divinity out of respect for the beliefs of the Christian posters here. Many people, in fact, use G-d as a courtesy to the Orthodox Jews who feel that omitting the vowel functions as additional respect for this divine appellation. God is on record, so far as the Scripture goes, as giving his name as yod he vau he, four Hebrew consonants that form an archaic causative infinitive of “to be” in Hebrew: “He that causes Himself to be” is probably as close as we can translate it. Modern scholars believe it was probably pronounced Yahweh (yah’-way, as in how you can get your food at the Jerusalem Burger King). ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/18 "2000-08-15T20:28:10Z")
Whatabout dog? Do you have to type d-g just in case someone reads it backwards? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/19 "2000-08-15T21:04:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **You know, Scupper, if the converse of the premise of your thread were posted by FriendofGod, everybody would be on his case. First off, in your first two posts, you equate the term “Christian” with only those who hold the Old Testament to be literally true in every detail.** That is the entire basis of my question. Why would I want to hear how people who **don’t** believe the Bible is at least a reasonably accurate document of God’s interactions with his people justify events they don’t even believe happened? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Second, there are a lot of us running around who took umbrage at that equation when Zion made it months ago, and who will I think take equal umbrage at you making it from the opposite field.\*\* That, of course, is your prerogative. It’s not called “Great Agreements” after all. As for Zion: don’t know him, didn’t read the thread, don’t care. I’m not psychic and I’m not going to refrain from asking a question merely because someone might have brought it up before. Otherwise, I might as well just lurk. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As for the usage, most of the board uses a capital G on the word god as applied to the Christian divinity out of respect for the beliefs of the Christian posters here. Many people, in fact, use G-d as a courtesy to the Orthodox Jews who feel that omitting the vowel functions as additional respect for this divine appellation. > \*\* I’ve already conceeded that Libertarian was correct and have amended my Capitalization accordingly. I’m not going to abbreviate and capitalize to make anyone happy, I just believe that he corrected a grammatical mistake on my part. Thanks for at least throwing a section in there addressing my question. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467/20 "2000-08-15T21:32:30Z")
When my Aunt got married, they had a full formal Catholic mass and one of her brothers (my uncle John) had to do a reading from the Bible. Anyhow, the reading was Yahweh this and Yahweh that…but during the reading, Unc’ John referred to Him as “Yahoo”. 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-excuse-the-ot-god/29467.md?page=2)