# How do Christians explain the evolution of man? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 25, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158 "2003-03-25T23:57:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/61 "2003-03-26T07:39:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by webman \* > \*\*Christians do not explain the evolution of man because a real christian does not believe in evolution at all. \*\* Coming back to this, if I may: given that a “real Christian” is one who follows the teachings of Jesus, can you pinpoint where in the Bible Jesus denied evolution? And where he dictated a literal reading of the Old Testament, since that is rather crucial to your claim as well. ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/62 "2003-03-26T07:43:15Z")
> [@](#): > > But alas, I believe the God of the heavens will have to come down here and say it is so before you’ll believe. You know, there’s rather a coincidence there. You see, back in '96, I passed scriptural muster to be considered a _bona fide_ prophet by both Jewish and Christian standards (Jewish is harder to come by). So, given that “The God of the Heavens” can be pretty much acknowledged to have come down and spoken to me already, do you think there’s a reason He didn’t tell me any of this at the time? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/63 "2003-03-26T07:43:53Z")
I’m going to bed, **webman** , but just so i don’t leave you hanging, here are the relevant passages from Genesis that i was referring to. Compare: > [@](#): > > \*\*Genesis 1;11-27 > \*11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day. > 14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day. > 20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fifth day. > 24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. > 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” > > 27 So God created man in his own image, > in the image of God he created him; > male and female he created them.\*\*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*Genesis 2:4-24 > \*4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. > > When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [2] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [3] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [4] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. > 8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. > 10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [6] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [7] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. > 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” > 18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” > 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. > But for Adam [8] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs [9] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [10] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. > 23 The man said, > > “This is now bone of my bones > and flesh of my flesh; > she shall be called 'woman, > for she was taken out of man.”\*\*\* Notice that in the first story, god made the plants and animals first, and man last. He also made Adam and Eve together. In the second story, he made God firts and _then_ made the plants and animals. We also get the rib story for Eve. So which is it? Did God make Adam first or last? ---
**Author:** ![webman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc29f/32.png) [@webman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webman)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/64 "2003-03-26T07:46:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _Darwin’s Finch said:_ > > …Just like the Bible never makes mention of the fact that we evolved from apes, as it happens… Actually the bible says that each living creature was made according to its kind. It didn’t say that one kind made another kind. Then God proceeded to create man in his image with God-like qualities of reason, love, kindness, and so forth. God created each living creature uniquely. > [@](#): > > _Darwin’s Finch said:_ > > On the contrary: your comments are quite indicative that you know little of actual evolutionary theory. You hide behind arguments of probability without showing how you arrived at those numbers, while also demonstrating an apparent ignorance of statistics while you’re at it. You’ve dodged Ben’s request, and now you are dodging mine. These are tactics of which those who have no real evidence to support their claims are fond. For now, I will say that is just your opinion. You do not know me and I wish you would quite claiming that you know me—YOU do not know me. About 12 years ago, I actually did timely studying over a year’s time on the topic. After that, I was solidly convinced that there had to be a creator of all this. It takes some faith too I must admit, but creation just makes more logical sense. > [@](#): > > _Darwin’s Finch said:_ > > I say again: you are arguing for the miraculous circumstances, not the “evolutionists”. If the shoe fits, wear it. Evolutionists are asking me to believe in an absolutely unbelievable miracle that quite simply defies all logic. > [@](#): > > _Darwin’s Finch said:_ > > Quite possibly because those statistics are a) erroneous, and b) irrelevant. Here you go again, guessing at what I have studied. You do not know this. > [@](#): > > _Darwin’s Finch said:_ > > What are the odds against someone winning the lottery? Yet, it happens frequently. No one would win the lottery at the odds of 1:10(10,000,000) because there’s simply not enough planets and humans to go around. I sorta believe you do not realize how big that number is. We’re not talking a lottery here. Go ahead and believe in that impossible miracle. The beginnings of evolution is quite random. So yes, evolution is about random acts somehow coming together. That is the foundation of evolution. What man is doing is not evolution, but deliberate actions and creation, not evolution. What we have is at first everything came about by accident until humans accidently came upon the scene and proceeded to do things by deliberate action and order. That still doesn’t explain all the accidents preceding mankind. How did the tree come about? How did the one cell organism come about? How did the earth put itself together before the tree and the one celled organism came about? How did the solar system come together and put the earth in the right place, not too close to the sun but not too far away either so as to sustain life? How did the earth provide the right conditions for all living things? By accident? If it’s not accident, then what made this all happen or should I say who made this happen? It does require intelligence. If not then it’s all by accident hence evolution, but evolution is illogical. It doesn’t take years of study to see the absurdity of the view that all things came about as a result of accidents (aka evolution). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/65 "2003-03-26T07:47:15Z")
Man I garbled THAT. I should have said, in the second story, God made Adam first, then the plants and animals… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/66 "2003-03-26T07:49:57Z")
Are you ever going to provide a source for those numbers, [ **web**? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/67 "2003-03-26T08:06:52Z")
The largest Christian denomination, the Roman Catholic Church, has no problem with evoluation, and hasn’t for decades. Evolution and natural selection are taught at every Catholic college and university. All that the church requires is the belief that at _some_ point in our evolution, humans were endowed by God with a soul. A theological, not biological, point. ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/68 "2003-03-26T08:10:13Z")
There we go! First case of totally ignoring a post that does not fit the worldview! Placing bets on when the second one will turn up. Place your bets now. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/69 "2003-03-26T08:11:34Z")
P.S. In case you are wondering about Catholics and Genesis, the church holds that scripture is true and inerrant in matters of _faith_. It does not require a fundamentalist reading of scripture, e.g., that Genesis is a historical account. ---
**Author:** ![webman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc29f/32.png) [@webman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webman)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/70 "2003-03-26T08:23:53Z")
Ring Species was mentioned to throw the original thought off track. As for the rest of you being professional debaters, so be it. I’m not really into debating over pointless details. I really believe that the professional debaters simply like to pick things apart and twist it to their liking to prove a point that at the bottom line makes no sense (to me anyway). You will never convince me that all things came from a one celled organism. If defies logic. Many people like to sound all high and mighty with their pretty words and complicated sounding terms yet cannot explain the basic accidents that become too incredibly impossible to happen. No matter how many eons of time goes by, this all just didn’t happen without intelligent direction. Just because you say it happened by evolution does not mean it did happen by evolution and with that we are at a stale mate on this issue. Neither the evolutionist nor the person who believes in creation can prove their point to one another. We are wasting our time here. I could post a whole book here and logically lay out the issue and one of the evolutionists here will try to make it all wrong or attempt to nullify it by making judgements about me and attempt to make what is illogical to logical when it is not. In the end all this debating won’t matter. You can debate with the almighty and lose that one. My posting is over for this turn because I don’t want to waste anymore time talking this over. It was not my intention to get into a pointless debate which is where this is headed. For you: You are right and I’m wrong… …and for me: You are wrong and I’m right. Stale mate. ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/71 "2003-03-26T08:30:45Z")
And there we are. That was rather a quick _fait accompli_, though I do say so I myself. At least **webman** here has had the honesty to admit his position early on, thus saving us time. If it helps any, webman, I have no problems with you believing whatever you want to believe about evolution and its verity or lack therof. All I ask is that you don’t expect us to believe that you can prove creationism with a scientific or mathematical argument. A theological or philosophical one might hold more water, but there would be people here who would probably dispute those as well. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/72 "2003-03-26T08:37:50Z")
----You will never convince me that all things came from a one celled organism. If defies logic.---- Can you explain how it is illogical? While I can understand how one can feel that it is improbable, I admit that I am not aware of the specifics of the argument that it is illogical. —Neither the evolutionist nor the person who believes in creation can prove their point to one another.— That’s true, because abiogenesis is unlikely to have left behind much physical evidence to consider. However, abiogeneticists can at least explain, and make plausible, their speculations. Can creationists do the same in a programatic way? Or are they left with the empty"it just happened" non-explanation? —I could post a whole book here and logically lay out the issue and one of the evolutionists here will try to make it all wrong or attempt to nullify it by making judgements about me and attempt to make what is illogical to logical when it is not— Well, this is what people feel to case no matter what the issue no matter what side they dogmatically take. The proof is in the pudding, and if you aren’t willing to stick around for the pudding, then whatever. Go home if you want and leave the debate to others. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/73 "2003-03-26T08:42:59Z")
—For now, I will say that is just your opinion. You do not know me and I wish you would quite claiming that you know me—YOU do not know me.— Your charge is false: the comments you reference were not attempts to characterize you, but rather the arguments you presented, which were indeed deficient in exactly the ways referenced. ---
**Author:** ![webman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc29f/32.png) [@webman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webman)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/74 "2003-03-26T08:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > _Diogenes the Cynic said:_ > > Are you ever going to provide a source for those numbers, [web? I could, but will I? If I feel like … takes some going back over my past readings in past articles that I do not have in front of me. After all you should already know what I’m talking about since you claim to be professional debaters. I’m surprised that you evolutionists don’t already know about those figures already. You should not need me to prove them which tells me that some of you are not as knowledgeable as you let on or you’d already know about it. There are holes also in your own knowledge of evolution. If you really knew what you were talking about, you’d know the facts and figures of what I speak of already. After all, some of you are supposedly superior to me in the knowledge of evolution. ---
**Author:** ![webman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc29f/32.png) [@webman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webman)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/75 "2003-03-26T09:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Your charge is false: **According to you it is.** I simply do not wish to waste days upon days to this debate. I do not have that kind of energy to put into such and unfruitful argument. As I said, Neither of us can prove the other one wrong, because I simply do not have that kind of time to sit and chatter about. If I had known the people I would be in discussion with, I would not have entered into this conversation to begin with. I now know how they operate. > [@](#): > > Go home if you want and leave the debate to others. That I will likely do. This is not something I wish to talk about for days and weeks on end. There’s money to be made and bills to pay unless someone here wants to pay me $30-40/hour to debate for the next week, LOL :D. _Every once in a while I get a curious urge to get into these discussions and shortly afterwards I remember why I usually stay away from them_. Wonder when I’ll need another reminder … hopefully not soon. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/76 "2003-03-26T09:06:12Z")
**webman** , a little friendly advice, if you don’t mind. Pretend this forum is a foreign stronghold; hazards lurk around every corner. And the SOP dictates “no prisoners”. I strongly urge caution. Also, be aware that no debate is ever resolved, not here. No matter how much time is spent debating the meaning of the word “is”, for example, you can only anticipate ever more engagements. That being said, best of luck. You’ll need it. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/77 "2003-03-26T09:08:16Z")
**webman** might be getting his probability arguments from [here.](http://snoke2.phyast.pitt.edu/APOLOG.pdf) (Acrobat file…) ---
**Author:** ![webman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc29f/32.png) [@webman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webman)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/78 "2003-03-26T09:09:04Z")
OK since I cannot edit… swap this: \>\>\> Your charge is false: for this… \>\>\> which were indeed deficient in exactly the ways referenced. Wrong reference made. ---
**Author:** ![webman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc29f/32.png) [@webman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/webman)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/79 "2003-03-26T09:27:32Z")
Regarding the acrobat file, I have not seen that particular writing. As for me needing luck … I respectfully say I do not need it because I don’t believe in it, but thanks for the warning just the same. I don’t feel defeated in my faith or knowledge. I simply do not have the time to put into this as some of the others here do. Perhaps they can argue with the creator when the time comes—probably they will wish they had not started that sort of argument. Evidently these other so-called professional debaters have debated these issues hundreds or even thousands of times and they get some enjoyment when they beat down someone else. It makes them feel victorious and strong. To me it’s foolish to debate for a long time with no appreciable results. I could work up some great counter-arguments but it’s too time consuming and it’s evident that these debaters have given much more time to these issues in the forums than I have. I could do the same thing and may even beat them at their own game, but why?? For what gain would there be? Nothing really. We are already at a stale-mate before the game has gotten very far along. This I have enough insight on. As I said, I was curious to get involved for the moment and the moment is past now. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158/80 "2003-03-26T10:27:09Z")
**webman** ; It seems that very little of your argument is based on anything more than personal incredulity. Furthermore it is difficult to debate a point with you because you seem to be all over the place, but at the same time never saying very much of substance. May I suggest that you start a thread of your own in GD, with the title ‘Evolution is false because…’ and present _ **one and only one** _ argument (pick any one you like) - stipulate firmly that the debate is to remain strictly on the topic in question and perhaps ask that respondents pose no more than one question per post. I hope you feel able to do this and I look forward to taking part. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-christians-explain-the-evolution-of-man/164158.md?page=5)