# How do conservatives reconcile government distrust and love for military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117 "2010-12-22T20:30:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/21 "2010-12-23T16:16:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Usurp does not mean what you appear to think it means. > > The only power the Constitution grants the military is to exist. In fact, it doesn’t even do that - it authorizes Congress to raise armies and a navy. No Air Force and no Coast Guard. See **BrainGlutton** ’s post for an explanation of how the military in the US does not attempt to exceed (if you like that term better) its Constitutional functions. And I don’t see any distinction relevant to the Constitutional role of the military between the Coast Guard and the navy, nor the Air Force and “armies”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/22 "2010-12-23T16:16:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Added to that, the military is more elite and meritocratic than elected officials. You have to achieve things to get into and stay in the military, and to get promoted. So? The same is true of the civil service. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/23 "2010-12-23T16:31:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? The same is true of the civil service. Hardly anyone shoots at civil servants. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/24 "2010-12-23T16:47:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t see any distinction relevant to the Constitutional role of the military between the Coast Guard and the navy, nor the Air Force and “armies”. So the founders believed that the armies provided for in the Constitution should be tasked with maintaining air superiority? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/25 "2010-12-23T16:54:51Z")
It’s not really thought out, it’s just handed down from above and read off. If you try to corner them it’s “obviously different.” Kinda like how liberals are for human rights and whistle blowing but root for the continued torture of Bradley Manning. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/26 "2010-12-23T16:55:36Z")
The Internet didn’t exist in 1787 either, but the First Amendment protects it. I realize what you are trying to do, but don’t bother. All the functions of war-fighting are included under the clause authorizing the US to have “armies”, just like the Coast Guard is included under the term “navy”. No, that is not a problem for textualists, nor for those who use “original intent” in Constitutional interpretation. Now if you have anything worthwhile to add besides these rather lame attempts at a gotcha, feel free. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/27 "2010-12-23T16:57:49Z")
Actually, National Review regularly asks the opposite question: liberals regularly assert that the federal government is filled with evil people under the thumb of big business… and yet, they want this evil entity to control our entire health system. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/28 "2010-12-23T17:35:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I realize what you are trying to do, but don’t bother. All the functions of war-fighting are included under the clause authorizing the US to have “armies”, just like the Coast Guard is included under the term “navy”. No, that is not a problem for textualists, nor for those who use “original intent” in Constitutional interpretation. You can usually do better than a “because I said so” argument. Disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/29 "2010-12-23T18:58:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So the founders believed that the armies provided for in the Constitution should be tasked with maintaining air superiority? Since the constitution is silent on what the military can and cannot be used for (outside the country), then it really doesn’t matter what they thought. If they wanted to limit the actions of the military, they should have put something in there saying so. The only limit is: “To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years” ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/30 "2010-12-23T19:04:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Nonetheless, the consensus among the vast majority of economists (and I’m talking in the 90% rage)** is that free tread between countries is a good thing, and that includes the ability to “outsource”. That is not to say that it doesn’t have ill effects on certain individuals, but the overall effect on the county as a whole is good. > > There certainly are millions of people who think as you do, just as there are millions of people who think the earth was created 6k years ago. Neither of those two beliefs is based on what science tells us. Would that be the same 90% that did not see the economic crisis coming? A lot good they are. Peter Schiff is someone that did see it coming. This is a video of him on CNBC laying out exactly what was going to happen as it did. While, you have Art Laffer and a host of other jokers laughing hysterically like a bunch of hyenas in his face as he was talking about it. Yea, sign me up for those economists lol. Peter Schiff Was Right 2006 - 2007 (2nd Edition) https://www.youtube.com/embed/2I0QN-FYkpw?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Watch the 10 minute video ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/31 "2010-12-23T19:11:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Hardly anyone shoots at civil servants. > > Regards, > Shodan When come back, bring relevance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/32 "2010-12-23T19:12:38Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Actually, National Review regularly asks the opposite question: liberals regularly assert that the federal government is filled with evil people under the thumb of big business… and yet, they want this evil entity to control our entire health system. I’m sure _National Review_ asks a **lot** of stupid questions. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/33 "2010-12-23T19:13:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since the constitution is silent on what the military can and cannot be used for (outside the country), then it really doesn’t matter what they thought. If they wanted to limit the actions of the military, they should have put something in there saying so. The only limit is: > > “To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be > for a longer Term than two Years” Since the constitution is silent on whether the government can offer universal health care… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/34 "2010-12-23T19:17:12Z")
> [@randy054](#): > > Would that be the same 90% that did not see the economic crisis coming? > A lot good they are. > > Peter Schiff is someone that did see it coming. > > This is a video of him on CNBC laying out exactly what was going to happen as it did. While, you have Art Laffer and a host of other jokers laughing hysterically like a bunch of hyenas in his face as he was talking about it. I don’t know what agenda Art Laffer was pushing, but Peter Schiff was hardly the only person who saw trouble coming. A lot of people knew real estate prices were a bubble. The reason you didn’t hear enough about this is that people like Art Laffer aren’t economists, they’re salesmen. Laffer was once an economist but in his position in 2007 it was his job to sell investments, and plus he’s on a news channel and program who get much better ratings with rosy forecasts. I had this argument with my best friend, who lives in California, starting in at LEAST 2005; for years I said that California home prices simply could not keep rising the way they were forever, that it just wasn’t logically possible. He insisted otherwise. It’s not that I’m a genius - after all, I didn’t know exactly when things would fall apart - or that my friend is stupid. But the thing with this sort of stuff is that people are irrational. Californians were buying homes at absolutely fucking insane prices based on a belief that prices woud keep going up even though to an outide observer with no stake in the mtater they obviously could not. Which leads us back to our OP; people don’t reconcile illogical beliefs at all. They hold various beliefs for personal reasons, and they stick to them. ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/35 "2010-12-23T19:32:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t know what agenda Art Laffer was pushing, but Peter Schiff was hardly the only person who saw trouble coming. A lot of people knew real estate prices were a bubble. > > The reason you didn’t hear enough about this is that people like Art Laffer aren’t economists, they’re salesmen. Laffer was once an economist but in his position in 2007 it was his job to sell investments, and plus he’s on a news channel and program who get much better ratings with rosy forecasts. > > I had this argument with my best friend, who lives in California, starting in at LEAST 2005; for years I said that California home prices simply could not keep rising the way they were forever, that it just wasn’t logically possible. He insisted otherwise. It’s not that I’m a genius - after all, I didn’t know exactly when things would fall apart - or that my friend is stupid. But the thing with this sort of stuff is that people are irrational. Californians were buying homes at absolutely fucking insane prices based on a belief that prices woud keep going up even though to an outide observer with no stake in the mtater they obviously could not. > > **Which leads us back to our OP; people don’t reconcile illogical beliefs at all. They hold various beliefs for personal reasons, and they stick to them.** Agreed. For those continuing to promote offshoring and outsourcing, especially when their riding the gravy train, like Art Laffer was riding the investment gravy train, as you pointed out, its hard to change your view. I noticed all the ones against Schiff were promoting a view based on optimism and prosperity rather than cold hard reality. As Peter pointed out, we need more production and saving in this country and less borrowing and consuming, and moving around fiat paper as a means to wealth. Unfortunately, I think we are past the point of no return, and no policy will stop the bleeding. Companies outsourced initially to make bigger profits for their fat cat CEO’s, but in the last few years, they have been outsourcing due to necessity and their greed along with government inaction is taking its toll. Now their crying foul at the government to give them tax breaks, when it was their greed that got us to where were at. There needs to be protections enacted to protect us from the looters, theifs and bank robbers of this country. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/36 "2010-12-23T19:58:18Z")
> [@randy054](#): > > Would that be the same 90% that did not see the economic crisis coming? > A lot good they are. > > Peter Schiff is someone that did see it coming. > > This is a video of him on CNBC laying out exactly what was going to happen as it did. While, you have Art Laffer and a host of other jokers laughing hysterically like a bunch of hyenas in his face as he was talking about it. > > Yea, sign me up for those economists lol. > > Peter Schiff Was Right 2006 - 2007 (2nd Edition) > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw) > > Watch the 10 minute video Schiff doesn’t attribute the cause to outsourcing though. He rightfully attributes the cause to excessive debt. I’m not really sure what your point is though. \*\*John Mace \*\*is talking about what is fundamental economic theory (akin to people buying more of a product when it’s cheaper). You are trying to invalidate it by focusing on a select number of economists inability to recognize or predict a financial disaster. Building collapse from time to time too. That doesn’t invalidate basic structural engineering concepts. > [@John Mace](#): > > I also think it’s easy to make a distinction between the political side of the government and the military. Not to mention the fact that the military is an external force. No military guy is going to make rules you have to follow unless you’re in the military. The political side of government is all about making rules for us to follow. The military very well could, in theory. I think the misconception here is that conservatives have a “distrust of government”. Conservatives believe in government by, of and for The People. They distrust what they perceive as a government run by a political, intellectual or academic elite or aristocracy. But by their nature, conservatives believe in order in authority. What conservatives also distrust is the idea of distributing wealth from those who are hardworking and successful to those who are not. They believe that not only does in provide disincentives and a moral hazard, it will create an untenable situation where political necessity will cause the government to continuously provide more in services than it can take in in revenue, leading to debt and eventual economic collapse. The conservative perception of the military is as a (usually) volunteer force of ordinary people who sign up to defend and serve their nation. They don’t perceive it as an extension of government or an implementer of foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/37 "2010-12-23T20:01:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Conservatives believe in government by, of and for The People. This is vague, vapid blabber designed to make it seem like conservatives care about democracy and “people” more than liberals do. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/38 "2010-12-23T20:08:01Z")
No it’s not. It’s just not quite as specific about _which_ people as it ought to be. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/39 "2010-12-23T20:09:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No it’s not. It’s just not quite as specific about _which_ people as it ought to be. I don’t see the basis for your contradicting me in the first sentence of your post; I agree with the second sentence, which reinforces my prior assertion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/40 "2010-12-23T20:17:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Conservatives believe in government by, of and for The People. Well, except for the “by” and “for.” > [@msmith537](#): > > They distrust what they perceive as a government run by a political, intellectual or academic elite or aristocracy. That would be at any rate preferable to a government run by a socioeconomic elite, which is what we’ve got now and for some time now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117.md?page=3)