# How do conservatives reconcile government distrust and love for military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117 "2010-12-22T20:30:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/41 "2010-12-23T20:23:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > When come back, bring relevance. It’s entirely relevant - most people understand the difference between joining an organization that sometimes involves dying in a good cause, and passing the civil service exam. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/42 "2010-12-23T20:26:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s entirely relevant - most people understand the difference between joining an organization that sometimes involves dying in a good cause, and passing the civil service exam. > > Regards, > Shodan Of course there is a difference. There is **not** any difference that makes the civil service any less “elite and meritocratic” than the military. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/43 "2010-12-23T22:08:06Z")
> [@randy054](#): > > Unfortunately, I think we are past the point of no return, and no policy will stop the bleeding. Companies outsourced initially to make bigger profits for their fat cat CEO’s, but in the last few years, they have been outsourcing due to necessity and their greed along with government inaction is taking its toll. As has been pointed out, that is not what Schiff was saying, there is not a shred of logic behind blaming the current crisis on “outsourcing,” and we’re now very off topic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/44 "2010-12-23T22:11:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Maybe some of the more extreme of the group believe that when the revolution comes the Real Americans in the military will throw off the shackles of their civilian masters and join The Cause. There was a time when Lenin had similar expectations of Russian soldiers . . . Difference is, Lenin was **right.** ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/45 "2010-12-23T22:21:50Z")
Perhaps it’s more relevant to ask: why are most conservatives for “small government” but not for a small military? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/46 "2010-12-23T23:23:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Since the constitution is silent on whether the government can offer universal health care… Well, if you want to go down that road, then the federal government can’t offer universal health care. Your analogy fails since the constitution does say the government can raise armed forces. If the constitution said the government could fund health care, but didn’t say to what extent, then there wouldn’t be any limit. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/47 "2010-12-23T23:40:48Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > It’s not really thought out, it’s just handed down from above and read off. If you try to corner them it’s “obviously different.” Kinda like how liberals are for human rights and whistle blowing but root for the continued torture of Bradley Manning. Wait, what? Since when is he being tortured, and why am I supposed to be in favor of that? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/48 "2010-12-23T23:45:21Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Actually, National Review regularly asks the opposite question: liberals regularly assert that the federal government is filled with evil people under the thumb of big business… and yet, they want this evil entity to control our entire health system. Well, NR is a propaganda rag. Liberals don’t generally want the entire health system controlled by the government. They want to use taxes to fund basic care, & private medicine can exist on top of that as a supplement. But it does seem like righties really do think that any money spent domestically on a category of citizen who is not oneself or a uniformed warfighter is a waste of money, but uniformed warfighters are always sacred, no matter how much money is wasted. I was raised GOP, & I know they know there’s waste in the Pentagon, I hear them gripe about it. Until they can use it to score points with the constituencies that believe in massive military outlays. Mostly I think it’s a matter of a mixed-bag party pandering to different constituencies in a big tent. But I wonder if there was a deeper fascist intent behind creating this particular tent. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/49 "2010-12-23T23:51:56Z")
The “military” exists to protect us and our national interests. The “government” wants to regulate and control us and take our money, and it never stops trying to do more of each. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/50 "2010-12-23T23:58:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The “military” exists to protect us and our national interests. > > The “government” wants to regulate and control us and take our money, and it never stops trying to do more of each. > > See the difference? Not as funny as it sounded in your head. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/51 "2010-12-23T23:59:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think the misconception here is that conservatives have a “distrust of government”. Conservatives believe in government by, of and for The People. They distrust what they perceive as a government run by a political, intellectual or academic elite or aristocracy. But by their nature, conservatives believe in order in authority. They believe in authority, but not government by the elite? Come again? I think the real issue is that there are different groups called by themselves “conservative.” The Movement was always a bizarre monster stitched together, to oppose whatever pissed off a rich guy in Connecticut, from whatever allies he could find. Now the original generation is dead, & the Movement lumbers along, believing its own propaganda. > [@](#): > > What conservatives also distrust is the idea of distributing wealth from those who are hardworking and successful to those who are not. Hardworking and successful are not mutually inclusive, as populists have pointed out for generations. > [@](#): > > They believe that not only does in provide disincentives and a moral hazard, it will create an untenable situation where political necessity will cause the government to continuously provide more in services than it can take in in revenue, leading to debt and eventual economic collapse. And yet the"Starve the Beast" policy of tax cuts embraced by Reaganites deliberately tries to _create an untenable situation where political necessity will cause the government to continuously provide more in services than it can take in in revenue, leading to debt and eventual economic collapse._ How ironic. > [@](#): > > The conservative perception of the military is as a (usually) volunteer force of ordinary people who sign up to defend and serve their nation. They don’t perceive it as an extension of government or an implementer of foreign policy. What was Containment then? What pipehead constituency of the GOP believes that? They obviously never served in war. War is the enforcement of foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/52 "2010-12-24T00:02:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The “military” exists to protect us and our national interests. > > The “government” wants to regulate and control us and take our money, and it never stops trying to do more of each. > > See the difference? An imperialist military, classically, uses guns & bombs to threaten to kill foreigners so we can force them to trade with us in a manner beneficial to us & not beneficial to them. A government makes laws so we don’t rape & pillage each other. Who’s the protector, who’s the extortionist? ---
**Author:** ![SanDiegoTim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@SanDiegoTim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanDiegoTim)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/53 "2010-12-24T00:02:24Z")
“How do conservatives reconcile government distrust and love for military?” That’s easy. In the military their are consequences for bad behavior and poor decisions. In government there is little, if any. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/54 "2010-12-24T00:10:39Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > An imperialist military, classically, uses guns & bombs to threaten to kill foreigners so we can force them to trade with us in a manner beneficial to us & not beneficial to them. Well, **not** beneficial to us, classically, but to our ruling class. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/55 "2010-12-24T00:26:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > An imperialist military, classically, uses guns & bombs to threaten to kill foreigners so we can force them to trade with us in a manner beneficial to us & not beneficial to them. A government makes laws so we don’t rape & pillage each other. > > Who’s the protector, who’s the extortionist? Well, to be fair the OP asked how conservatives reconcile government mistrust with love for the military. But apart from that, perhaps you could cite the undoubtedly numerous countries around the world who are trading with us because of threats and a fear of our military? And perhaps you could cite where conservatives have shown themselves to be disdainful of government when it comes to laws against rape, theft, assault, murder, etc.? And perhaps you could cite where the OP asked who was the protector and who was the extortionist? And finally, in light of the fact that everything you said was fallacious, could you perhaps explain how your post actually has anything to do with anything I said? Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/56 "2010-12-24T00:43:42Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The “military” exists to protect us and our national interests. > > The “government” wants to regulate and control us and take our money, and it never stops trying to do more of each. > > See the difference? I responded to your post. If you can insult the government, I can insult the part you like. See how that works? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/57 "2010-12-24T01:16:33Z")
> [@](#): > > But apart from that, perhaps you could cite the undoubtedly numerous countries around the world who are trading with us because of threats and a fear of our military? > **[Gunboat diplomacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy)** > > Gunboat diplomacy is the pursuit of foreign policy objectives with the aid of conspicuous displays of naval power, implying or constituting a direct threat of warfare should terms not be agreeable to the superior force. > The term originated in the 19th century, during the age of imperialism, when Western powers, especially the United Kingdom, France, Germany and the United States would use their superior military capabilities, particularly their naval assets, to intimidate less powerful nations i... > **[Roosevelt Corollary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Corollary)** > > In the history of United States foreign policy, the Roosevelt Corollary was an addition to the Monroe Doctrine articulated by President Theodore Roosevelt in his 1904 State of the Union Address, largely as a consequence of the Venezuelan crisis of 1902–1903. The corollary states that the United States could intervene in the internal affairs of Latin American countries if they committed flagrant wrongdoings that "loosened the ties of civilized society". > Roosevelt tied his policy to the Monroe D... > [@](#): > > And perhaps you could cite where conservatives have shown themselves to be disdainful of government when it comes to laws against rape, theft, assault, murder, etc.? > > And perhaps you could cite where the OP asked who was the protector and who was the extortionist? These were responses to your post, as I said. Stop moving the goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/58 "2010-12-24T02:10:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Wait, what? Since when is he being tortured, and why am I supposed to be in favor of that? [He’s been in “maximum custody” for the past five months.](http://my.firedoglake.com/blog/2010/12/23/bradley-manning-speaks-about-his-conditions/) Every day after the first week can fairly be counted as torture, I’d say. [The UN is looking into it as a human-rights violation.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/23/un-treatment-leaks-bradley-manning) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/59 "2010-12-24T02:32:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I responded to your post. If you can insult the government, I can insult the part you like. See how that works? > [@foolsguinea](#): > > I responded to your post. If you can insult the government, I can insult the part you like. See how that works? Yeah, I see how it works. I explained why conservatives dislike government but still like the military, and you countered with nonsense. Works for me. 😃 > [@foolsguinea](#): > > [Gunboat diplomacy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy) > [Roosevelt Corollary - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Corollary) Pardon, but I didn’t ask for Wikipedia definitions of gunboat diplomacy. You said our military is used to threaten other countries into trading with us. I’m asking you (again) to list just which of the 83 or so countries in the world are trading with us due to military intimidation by the U.S. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > These were responses to your post, as I said. Stop moving the goalposts. Bwahaha! Pot, meet kettle. Still, there was no goalpost moving on my part. The OP wanted to know why conservatives oppose government but support the military. He said nothing about who’s the extortionist vs. who’s the protector. You came up with that all on your own. And then when asked just who it was that was being extorted, you were left holding an empty sack. Works for me also. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117/60 "2010-12-24T02:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > He said nothing about who’s the extortionist vs. who’s the protector. You came up with that all on your own. No, you brought it up. I’m explaining that, historically, it’s nonsense. > [@](#): > > You said our military is used to threaten other countries into trading with us. I’m asking you (again) to list just which of the 83 or so countries in the world are trading with us due to military intimidation by the U.S. No, I said, “classically.” I didn’t say “currently.” I know you’re trying to be disingenuous, but any conservatism that isn’t based in a study of history & a belief in historically demonstrated truths is just self-important generational provincialism. You love the military for whatever damn fool reason you’ve convinced yourself they’re good. But the conservative movement embraces jingoists for a reason known to those who stitched that movement together. And once upon a time, the fathers of the fathers of modern conservatism were globalists who believed in gunboat diplomacy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-conservatives-reconcile-government-distrust-and-love-for-military/565117.md?page=4)