# How do creationists get \*dinosaur\* from \*leviathan\*? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2000, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373 "2000-06-04T17:21:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2000, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/1 "2000-06-04T17:21:30Z")
This morning at church a friend was talking about creation vs. evolution with her 11-year-old son, and she turned to me at one point and asked me, “What is the name of that Bible animal that nobody really knows what it is, but they say it proves that dinosaurs are in the Bible?” I didn’t really know what she was talking about, but the only problematic Bible animal name I knew was “leviathan”. She said, “Yes, that’s it!” I had never heard that the creationists use this to prove that dinosaurs ARE SO in the Bible, but another friend who was standing nearby said, “Yeah, I’ve heard it dozens of times.” So I came home and did some research with my handy-dandy New American Standard Electronic Bible Library. > [@](#): > > _New American Standard Concordance_ > Leviathan > day, Who are prepared to rouse Leviathan. Jb 3:8 3882 > you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook? Jb 41:1 3882 > You crushed the heads of Leviathan; Ps 74:14 3882 > There the ships move along, And Leviathan, Ps 104:26 3882 > will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Is 27:1 3882 > sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; Is 27:1 38 > > _Easton’s Bible Dictionary_ > Leviathan — a transliterated Hebrew word (livyathan), meaning “twisted,” “coiled.” In Job 3:8, Revised Version, and marg. of Authorized Version, it denotes the dragon which, according to Eastern tradition, is an enemy of light; in 41:1 the crocodile is meant; in Ps. 104:26 it “denotes any large animal that moves by writhing or wriggling the body, the whale, the monsters of the deep.” This word is also used figuratively for a cruel enemy, as some think “the Egyptian host, crushed by the divine power, and cast on the shores of the Red Sea” (Ps. 74:14). As used in Isa. 27:1, “leviathan the piercing [R.V. ‘swift’] serpent, even leviathan that crooked [R.V. marg. ‘winding’] serpent,” the word may probably denote the two empires, the Assyrian and the Babylonian. > > _New Nave’s Topical Bible_ > LEVIATHAN. Possibly a crocodile, Job 41; Psa. 104:26. The crooked serpent, Isa. 27:1. > Figurative: Psa. 74:14.See Dragon. > > _Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible_ > So leviathan (the twisting animal), Job 41:1, is a generalized term for cetacea, pythons, saurians of the neighboring seas and rivers, including the crocodile, which is the most prominent, and is often associated with the river horse by old writers. > > Job 41:1–34. > > 1. leviathan—literally, “the twisted animal,” gathering itself in folds: a synonym to the Thannin (Job 3:8, Margin; see Ps 74:14; type of the Egyptian tyrant Ps 104:26; Is 27:1; the Babylon tyrant). A poetical generalization for all cetacean, serpentine, and saurian monsters (see on Job 40:15, hence all the description applies to no one animal); especially the crocodile; which is naturally described after the river horse, as both are found in the Nile. > tongue … lettest down?—The crocodile has no tongue, or a very small one cleaving to the lower jaw. But as in fishing the tongue of the fish draws the baited hook to it, God asks, Canst thou in like manner take leviathan? > > _Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary on the Bible. > Concerning Leviathan._ > The description of the Leviathan, is yet further to convince Job of his own weakness, and of God’s almighty power. Whether this Leviathan be a whale or a crocodile, is disputed. > > _New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries_ > 3882. ÷t;y:wÒli > Livyathan (531b); from the same as 3880; “serpent,” a sea monster or dragon:— Leviathan(6). So now my question is, how do you extrapolate from “serpent” to “dinosaur”? Are you assuming it means a plesiosaur? How do you get that? Couldn’t it just be a giant squid or octopus? Or is it just one more of those things that we are supposed to take on faith? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2000, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/2 "2000-06-04T18:07:39Z")
I’ve seen this brought up several times over at the LBMB. Here’s the thought process, near as I can dissect it: –The Bible is literal and inerrant. –Since humans have been around since the universe was about a week old, dinosaurs and humans had to have co-existed. –If a bunch of creatures that big were roaming the Earth, wouldn’t someone have written about them? Answer: they did, and called it a leviathan. Let’s face it–if you really do believe the world is only 6000 years old and the Genesis account is completely literal (and I didn’t think there were many such people until I started hanging out on the LBMB), it requires a lot of rationalization and justification. Don’t expect much of it to make sense. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2000, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/3 "2000-06-04T19:15:26Z")
I read this creationist’s take on it. Talking about how in Chinese mythology there’s the dragon, which must be the dinosaur. The leviathan thing was in there too. BTW, what’s the LBMB? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2000, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/4 "2000-06-04T23:49:47Z")
Golly. **DoctorJ,** thanks for the breakdown. The mind boggles. Logic is not normally my strong suit, but even I can tell that there are holes there big enough to drive the Starship Enterprise through. And talk about your major league assumptions. I’d start trying to analyze it, except I don’t know whether it’s worth it. **Jello,** the LBMB stands for the Left Behind Message Board, a strongly fundamentalist MB. **Jenkinsfan** is our latest visitor from Over There. I was kind of hoping he’d show up in this thread and explain this “leviathan” thing to me. I WANT to understand it, really I do. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2000, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/5 "2000-06-05T01:51:20Z")
Hmmm… Well, I’m no creationist, but I believe there is also a Bible reference to a “ **Behemoth** ” (in Job, perhaps?) to which creationists also point as a supposed Bible reference to dinosaurs. Anybody have a Bible handy? ---
**Author:** ![Greyson3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/258eb7/32.png) [@Greyson3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greyson3)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2000, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/6 "2000-06-05T01:51:30Z")
I guess I’m a bit late for this, but one thing: Plesiosaurs aren’t dinosaurs. In fact, if a reptile is aquatic or capable of flight, it is by definition **not** a dinosaur. If we accept that this “leviathan” critter does in fact live underwater, that means that it is expressly excluded from true dinosaurhood. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2000, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/7 "2000-06-05T02:03:41Z")
OK, here’s the language on Behemoth, from Job, Chapter 40: > [@](#): > > 15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with > thee; he eateth grass as an ox. > > 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his > force is in the navel of his belly. > > 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews > of his stones are wrapped together. > > 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; > his bones are like bars of iron. > > 19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that > made him can make his sword to approach > unto him. > > 20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, > where all the beasts of the field play. > > 21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert > of the reed, and fens. > > 22 The shady trees cover him with their > shadow; the willows of the brook compass him > about. > > 23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth > not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into > his mouth. > > 24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth > through snares. And here’s a site that makes the argument that the writer of Job is referring to dinosaurs: [http://www.ior.com/~kjc/pictures/behemoth.htm](http://www.ior.com/~kjc/pictures/behemoth.htm) ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2000, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/8 "2000-06-05T09:55:50Z")
I can simplify DoctorJ’s logic, if you want… -Leviathan/Behemoth: Big things. -Dinosaurs: Big things. There we go! They MUST be talking about dinosaurs! These certainly can’t be references to OTHER “Big things” that you ignorant people claim were roaming the Earth at the same time! Yabba Dabba Doo! ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2000, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/9 "2000-06-05T10:16:07Z")
for the Literary amongst us, Read “Paradise Lost” by Milton (?) He mentions the Leviathan as being a huge beast of Evil. He was pretty fundamental, (Avenge O Lord…) but the poem in question was based before Man. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2000, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/10 "2000-06-07T04:16:00Z")
Most Scripture scholars I know of tend to assume that the leviathan is the Nile crocodile and the behemoth is the hippopotamus. Perhaps they’re right (seems plausible enough to me), perhaps not, but it seems silly that, in trying to make a point to Job, God would allude to a creature Job had never seen and had never heard of. Dinosaurs were long gone by the time man came along, so God could hardly have expected Job to know what a brontosaurus was (if THAT was what God meant). ---
**Author:** ![HomeSlice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9d8465/32.png) [@HomeSlice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HomeSlice)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/11 "2000-06-07T04:52:20Z")
Hey, isnt the leviathan a 10/10 blue creature with trample and a casting cost of 4 blue and 5 colorless? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2000, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/12 "2000-06-07T05:05:38Z")
Homeslice, you have more courage to say what I couldn’t… I salute you. However, I would have also wondered why the Bible didn’t mention Polar Kraken’s and Phyrexian Dreadnaughts… Astorian… I assume that those arguing that “leviathan” meant “dinosaur” are creationists or something that claim the universe is only 6,000 years old, and that dinosaurs really existed with mankind for a while. Of course, this “leviathan=dinosaur” crowd is probably a group all of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Jose\_Aburrido](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@Jose\_Aburrido](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jose_Aburrido)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2000, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/13 "2000-06-07T22:21:34Z")
The Behemoth description sounds nothing like a hippo. For example: “He moveth his tail like a cedar”–Hippos have small, weak tails. I think that Hippo-behemoth classification is bogus. ---
**Author:** ![Mundo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mundo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2000, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/14 "2000-06-07T23:44:59Z")
DoctorJ where or how do you figure the earth is only 6000 years old. I am not denying what you say is true, just that I would like to know how you got that figure. I plan to use that point in an agrument I have been having but would like to have a way to back that up. Can’t they use carbon dating to prove things are over 6000 years old? ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/15 "2000-06-08T01:12:27Z")
Creationists arrive at a date of 4004 B.C. for the creation of the Earth by using Bishop Ussher’s 17th century calculations, in which he added up the ages of all of the patriarchs mentioned in the Bible. Many creationists realize full well that there are even records of civilizations that are older than 6000 years, and furthermore this places the Noachian flood at ~2300 B.C., so you have to explain how the Chinese didn’t notice their own annihilation! As a result, many modern YEC’ers arbitrarily set the date back a few thousand years further, to somewhere between 10-15 thousand years ago. Virtually all YEC’s disdain any sort of radiometric dating, which can be used to prove that the Earth is WAAAAAY older than 10 thousand years (4.55±.02 billion, to be precise). They usually just say that the entire field is hopelessly inaccurate. So in short, there’s no evidence for a 6000 year old Earth, despite the desires of Biblical literalists. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/16 "2000-06-08T05:46:49Z")
Also, some Creationists argue that things were “created old”, or something like that. Apparently, they believe that God played us all for saps by making us think the Universe is thousands of times older than it really is. What a loving deity, huh? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/17 "2000-06-08T13:07:06Z")
Be he man, or behemoth? OK, to resolve this, we have to go back to the ancient Biblical Hebrew text. The Hebrew word for leviathan has no vowels, so it’s L-V-TH-N. The ancient Hebrew word for dinosaur – well, OK, so there wasn’t such a word, but the modern Hebrew word is D-N-S-R. Now we can rearrange the letters as follows: L-V-Th-N R-D-S-N Note that the Th and S letters in Hebrew are very similar (in fact, only distinguished by a dot which isn’t even used in the oldest manuscripts.) Also, of course, Hebrew is related to Chinese and we all know how the Chinese can’t distinguish between L and R. So now by substituting Th for S and L for R in Dinosaur, we have: L-V-Th-N L-D-Th-N Well, there ya go. The words are practically identical. I mean, you wouldn’t let one little letter stand in the way of blind belief, would you. And here’s the clincher: the difference in the two words are the letters D-V, and we all known that stands for D-V-D, an ancient computer-like device that played – no, no, wait, that stands for DAVID, the Biblical king, guy who killed Goliath. And what was Goliath? A Giant, an enormous-sized brontosaurus-like being. Hah! If that don’t prove it, I dunno what will ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2000, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/18 "2000-06-08T14:24:41Z")
Gosh, C.K., you’ve convinced _me._ Are you sure you aren’t really Tim LaHaye? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CollegeStudent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CollegeStudent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CollegeStudent)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2000, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/19 "2000-06-10T04:28:00Z")
Well I am another convert from the LBMB. Over there my screen name is RaptureNow12 but I changed it to go here so it would not offend anyone. Anyway on the subject of the Leviathan the New Bible Dictionary notes the following: “The context of its use in the Old Testament some form of aquatic monster. In Psalms 104:26 it is clearly of the sea and is generally thought to be the whale, although the dolphin has been suggested. It also refers to a dragon or crocodile in Job.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2000, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373/20 "2000-06-10T13:54:07Z")
OK, so then where did “dinosaur” come into the picture? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-creationists-get-dinosaur-from-leviathan/21373.md?page=2)