# How do devout Christians justify military service?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 8, 2008, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666 "2008-07-08T07:05:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/1 "2008-07-08T07:05:25Z")
This is really a GQ, but given the subject matter I’ll put it here to avoid it having to be moved later. As mentioned in the “Christian Military” thread, this is something I have wondered before.
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> “Whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me.” Matthew 25:40
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> ```
> You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
> —Matthew 5:38-42, NIV
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> ```
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> But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Luke 6:27
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> Jesus said, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; fear him rather who can destroy both body and soul in hell.” Matthew 10:28
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> You know the commandments: you must not kill…" Mark 10.18
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> “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.” Matthew 26:52
These are just a few of the quotes that would seem to advocate non-violence from the words of Christ Himself. It’s not meant to be rhetorical or argumentative but curiosity when I ask "How do devout (even Fundamentalist) Christians rationalize this with a military career where you could easily be required to kill somebody who has done you no harm?
Thanks for any answers.
ETA: I am not arguing for the necessity of war- I admit it is sometimes necessary. This is strictly a question about those from a Christian perspective joining the service.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/2 "2008-07-08T07:58:52Z")
Some don’t (Quakers & JWs IIRC)
But generally, I imagine it’s because they can easily find other Bible verses that justify the opposite view (From JC scourging the Temple to stuff from the OT, I guess). The Bible isn’t known as a model of consistency.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/3 "2008-07-08T11:58:41Z")
I think this is an excellent question, exactly for the reasons pointed out in the OP. Also, Mr. Dibble makes a good point about Quakers and such.
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### Author:  [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/4 "2008-07-08T12:16:04Z")
I’ve had it justified by saying that Jesus’ teachings in the quoted passages were limited to individual conduct.
As a soldier in an army - especially a non-volunteer force - you are not making the decisions based on your personal morality, but from a position in a collective.
There are also Christians who would argue that turning the other cheek conflicts with a duty to protect the weak from harm.
Or that Christ’s words are for a perfect world, and we need to compromise in an imperfect world.
I disagree with this approach - I cannot imagine Christ bayonneting an soldier or slitting a sentry’s throat, or coodinating a bombing run.
Mark Twain wrote an excellent short essay on this:
[QUOTE=The War Prayer]
"O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells;
help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead;
help us to drown the thunder of the guns with shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain;
help us to lay waste their humble homes with hurricanes of fire;
help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief;
help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it.
For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."
[/quote]
[http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/warprayer.htm](http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/warprayer.htm)
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### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/5 "2008-07-08T12:59:11Z")
Only love can conquer fear, and perfect love conquers all fear. Start teaching love at all levels of society. That would work eventually, but I think only a very few posting here would agree with this.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/6 "2008-07-08T14:32:16Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Only love can conquer fear, and perfect love conquers all fear. Start teaching love at all levels of society. That would work eventually, but I think only a very few posting here would agree with this.
[/QUOTE]
Can you explain how that would work specifically? Let’s say that Poland had learned perfect love, how would that have stopped the Nazi invasion or at least stopped the Poles from feeling any fear?
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### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/7 "2008-07-08T14:47:37Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Can you explain how that would work specifically? Let’s say that Poland had learned perfect love, how would that have stopped the Nazi invasion or at least stopped the Poles from feeling any fear?
[/QUOTE]
If the Poles had learned perfect love they would not fear, they would meet the Germans with open arms, gifts, and hugs. The Germans would not have to kill anyone to get what they wanted. The German leaders would have a hard time keeping an army together in that atmosphere.
Ghandi said to put all the things you value most out in the open in your house, so if a robber breaks in he will not have to tear up your home looking for them.
It is our attachments that keep us imprisoned.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/8 "2008-07-08T14:53:23Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Ghandi said to put all the things you value most out in the open in your house, so if a robber breaks in he will not have to tear up your home looking for them.
[/QUOTE]
**Ghandi**? I’m aware of one Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, but is this the same person you’re referring to?
And how does this apply to the OP’s question?
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/9 "2008-07-08T14:57:09Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
If the Poles had learned perfect love they would not fear, they would meet the Germans with open arms, gifts, and hugs. The Germans would not have to kill anyone to get what they wanted. The German leaders would have a hard time keeping an army together in that atmosphere.
[/QUOTE]
The Germans would still have to kill to get what they wanted because they wanted the Jews wiped off the Earth. And I am sure they could have kept their army together if the Poles had just rolled over. They could have invaded Denmark and Norway even faster.
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> Ghandi said to put all the things you value most out in the open in your house, so if a robber breaks in he will not have to tear up your home looking for them.
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> It is our attachments that keep us imprisoned.
Maybe the Jews should have put their children on the front porch?
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### Author:  [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/10 "2008-07-08T14:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
If the Poles had learned perfect love they would not fear, they would meet the Germans with open arms, gifts, and hugs. The Germans would not have to kill anyone to get what they wanted. The German leaders would have a hard time keeping an army together in that atmosphere.
Ghandi said to put all the things you value most out in the open in your house, so if a robber breaks in he will not have to tear up your home looking for them.
It is our attachments that keep us imprisoned.
[/QUOTE]
Compassion and Buddhist philosophy has not done a hell of a lot for the Tibetans so far.
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### Author:  [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/11 "2008-07-08T15:02:09Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Only love can conquer fear, and perfect love conquers all fear. Start teaching love at all levels of society. That would work eventually, but I think only a very few posting here would agree with this.
[/QUOTE]
Teaching love would allow Christians to justify military service? Or are you just ignoring the purpose of the thread to spout bullshit?
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### Author:  [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/12 "2008-07-08T15:03:38Z")
That Catholic website is a really good resource for questions like this. Here is the Catholic Just War Doctrine:
[http://www.catholic.com/library/Just\_War\_Doctrine\_1.asp](http://www.catholic.com/library/Just_War_Doctrine_1.asp)
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/13 "2008-07-08T15:26:34Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
**Ghandi**? I’m aware of one Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, but is this the same person you’re referring to?
And how does this apply to the OP’s question?
[/QUOTE]
Actually, Gandhi is it. He was into X-treem pacifism. The kind where you run at the enemy shooting at you an try to give him stuff before he kills you. And then he kills you.
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### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/14 "2008-07-08T15:33:22Z")
[QUOTE=Snarky\_Kong]
Teaching love would allow Christians to justify military service? Or are you just ignoring the purpose of the thread to spout bullshit?
[/QUOTE]
I predicted very few would agree.
How about we need to kill them in order to save their souls?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/15 "2008-07-08T15:42:07Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I predicted very few would agree.
How about we need to kill them in order to save their souls?
[/QUOTE]
I think you have now made your point, but as noted, above, this is not really germane to the topic of this thread which asks how Christians currently justify military service.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/16 "2008-07-08T15:44:30Z")
If I may try to pull the thread away from the lekatt sidetrack, the peace message of Christianity works for undermining existing power structures, but once it became _part_ of the structure, it was forced to adapt the same military methods to stay in that position, hence no social stigma of the contradiction inherent in the warrior Christian.
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### Author:  [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/17 "2008-07-08T15:48:27Z")
Since when do christians follow the teachings of Jesus?
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/18 "2008-07-08T15:50:56Z")
As Bryan points out, pacifism hasn’t been a part of mainstream Christianity since late antiquity. It’s not like these Fundamentalist Christian soldiers are defying the teachings of their community, since their particular religious community has supported war, soldiery, and conquest since the Protestant reformation.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/19 "2008-07-08T16:30:13Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
Since when do christians follow the teachings of Jesus?
[/QUOTE]
What does this mean?
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/20 "2008-07-08T16:39:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
That Catholic website is a really good resource for questions like this. Here is the Catholic Just War Doctrine:
[http://www.catholic.com/library/Just\_War\_Doctrine\_1.asp](http://www.catholic.com/library/Just_War_Doctrine_1.asp)
[/QUOTE]
Which brings up the question: if there isn’t a particular war going on when a Christian enlists, but his enlistment might well require his participation in an unjust war that we get involved in during that period of enlistment, how _then_ can the Christian justify enlisting?
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