# How do devout Christians justify military service?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 8, 2008, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666 "2008-07-08T07:05:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/61 "2008-07-09T06:43:00Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver]
Sounds like an evil bunch. You should consider moving to a Godless country where you’ll be safe.
[/QUOTE]
The Scandinavian countries, France (nominally Catholic but most are not devout), Italy (called by longtime resident Gore Vidal “formerly pagan, briefly Christio-pagan, currently between deities”) and from my understanding most of western Europe for that matter are largely “godless”, which is to say that while they certainly have devout Christians (and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and all other religions) and some even have state religions their government and their people are mostly secular and the religious conservatives haven’t become super powerful as a political movement. I think they’re safer than the Muslim countries, most South American nations, and for that matter, the USA (as evidenced in terms of murder rates and crime anyway).
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/62 "2008-07-09T07:08:17Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro]
The Scandinavian countries, France (nominally Catholic but most are not devout), Italy (called by longtime resident Gore Vidal “formerly pagan, briefly Christio-pagan, currently between deities”) and from my understanding most of western Europe for that matter are largely “godless”, which is to say that while they certainly have devout Christians (and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and all other religions) and some even have state religions their government and their people are mostly secular and the religious conservatives haven’t become super powerful as a political movement. I think they’re safer than the Muslim countries, most South American nations, and for that matter, the USA (as evidenced in terms of murder rates and crime anyway).
[/QUOTE]
better buy an airline ticket now before the price goes up.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/63 "2008-07-09T07:30:27Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver]
better buy an airline ticket now before the price goes up.
[/QUOTE]
Oh God, one of those “then why don’t cha leave it” ers. I KNEW that was coming I KNEW It. (You may want to go if Obama gets elected; rumor has it he’s going to be sending Christians to reeducation camps.)
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/64 "2008-07-09T11:10:38Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver]
Sounds like an evil bunch. You should consider moving to a Godless country where you’ll be safe.
[/QUOTE]
Some people try to run and hide from problems. Some people attempt to fix problems.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/65 "2008-07-09T14:56:03Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro]
(You may want to go if Obama gets elected; rumor has it he’s going to be sending Christians to reeducation camps.)
[/QUOTE]
Since religion is largely based on ignorance… technically they would be “education” camps. 😃
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### Author:  [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/66 "2008-07-09T15:02:29Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
The person here trying to push a logical fallacy here is you and not me. No doubt that’s why you essentially tried to say "No, no, using the term ‘No True Scotsman’ isn’t allowed !', because that’s just what you are doing. There are, quite literally, millions of Christians who follow versions of God
[/QUOTE]
Just so we are straight, here. It was Lobohan that state he believed that Christians believed in a psychopath God. I refuted that, going into more detail in later posts.
You are correct. Christians believe that there may be punishment. But punishment does not preclude mercy. Rules of Immorality/morality do, however, preclude amorality. Grace precludes empathy and remorse. So, even if you personally believe that the Christian god is some sort of colossal meanie, he still doesn’t fall under any normal definition of a psychopath.
I find it interesting, btw, that even the atheists in this thread seem to have a favorable opinion of Jesus, but you insist of labeling him a psychopath.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/67 "2008-07-09T15:09:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
I refuted that…
[/QUOTE]
No you didn’t. You spouted a fallacious argument, that you then accused Der Tris of using. Don’t you recall?
You are the one passing off your beliefs as all encompassing-christianity. And they aren’t. I’m happy your imaginary friend makes you complete and keeps you warm at night. It’s just that some people’s imaginary friends are the ecclesiastical equivalent of Ike Turner.
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/68 "2008-07-09T15:28:28Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
I find it interesting, btw, that even the atheists in this thread seem to have a favorable opinion of Jesus, but you insist of labeling him a psychopath.
[/QUOTE]
No, they insist on labeling God (the Father, the god of the Old Testament) a psychopath. They’re only saying Jesus is a psychopath if they buy into the standard Christian interpretation that Jesus was God, which isn’t a necessary interpretation.
Frankly, I like most of Jesus’s message. But I don’t believe that he was a) God, or b)accurately represented in full in the Gospels. The Gospels were written for various purposes, and “as an accurate portrayal of Jesus’s life” was low on the totem pole for all of them. They didn’t call the Gospel authors “evangelists” (messengers) because they were big on objective journalism. They had a message to convey, and accurate factual accounts weren’t that message.
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### Author:  [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/69 "2008-07-09T16:26:21Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay]
Frankly, I like most of Jesus’s message.
[/QUOTE]
Even the nontrinitarian sects of Christianity believe, that at the very least, Jesus’s message was God’s message. Do you see the conflict now? Or are you now going to claim that not all Christians believe in the Christ?
The sects that do not believe in Jesus as a deity are fairly minor. More common are the tritheistic views, such as Mormonism. But they still all agree that Jesus and God are of the same purpose.
You can not have a psychopathic Christian God without that reflecting on Jesus as well.
If you insist on making claims based upon just the Old Testament God alone, you are not talking about Christianity, but Judaism. They are very different. But even so, no one has refuted my logic on why the OT God is not a psychopath, based upon the definition I cited earlier.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/70 "2008-07-09T16:34:24Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
Do you mind if I keep and use this quote? I’m putting together a website of logical fallacies, and was having hard time finding a good example of begging the question. This one is perfect! It’s textbook!
[/QUOTE]
I don’t see how it’s an example of begging the question. ISTM that **Der Trihs** has identified the fallacy here: that of assuming the name given to something tells us more about it than the properties it has.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/71 "2008-07-09T16:46:30Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
Or are you now going to claim that not all Christians believe in the Christ?
[/quote]
Of course. Isn’t that old news?
People believe what they want to believe, and have no trouble reconciling it with the faith they believe they’re supposed to believe. The God that people think they believe in is very much a construct of their own minds. To some extent that overlaps with the God that really is, if we’re lucky.
But just because someone says they believe in Jesus, doesn’t mean they believe in something that’s at all like Jesus. Hell, it doesn’t even mean they believe in something remotely consistent with the Jesus of the Gospels.
> [@](#):
>
> You can not have a psychopathic Christian God without that reflecting on Jesus as well.
**Der Trihs** is making no claims as to what the actual God is like - IIRC, he doesn’t believe there is one in the first place.
He’s claiming the _properties that millions of believers ascribe to God_ describe an entity that, in any other context, we would regard as psychopathic - and why should the context of divinity cause us to come to a different conclusion?
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/72 "2008-07-09T17:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sinaijon]
Even the nontrinitarian sects of Christianity believe, that at the very least, Jesus’s message was God’s message. Do you see the conflict now? Or are you now going to claim that not all Christians believe in the Christ?
The sects that do not believe in Jesus as a deity are fairly minor. More common are the tritheistic views, such as Mormonism. But they still all agree that Jesus and God are of the same purpose.
You can not have a psychopathic Christian God without that reflecting on Jesus as well.
If you insist on making claims based upon just the Old Testament God alone, you are not talking about Christianity, but Judaism. They are very different. But even so, no one has refuted my logic on why the OT God is not a psychopath, based upon the definition I cited earlier.
[/QUOTE]
You’re missing my point, which is that I don’t have to care what this sect or that sect of Christianity believes about Jesus. All I care about is that roughly 3/4 of the actual philosophy that is attributed to him in the Gospels sounds good to me, as an agnostic/borderline atheist. All of the other stuff is the Christians’ baggage to deal with. I am not forced to take Jesus on the Christians’ terms.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/73 "2008-07-09T21:59:08Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Some people try to run and hide from problems. Some people attempt to fix problems.
[/QUOTE]
So how do you plan on fixing all the people who don’t like Christians?
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/74 "2008-07-09T22:04:47Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro]
Oh God, one of those “then why don’t cha leave it” ers. I KNEW that was coming I KNEW It. (You may want to go if Obama gets elected; rumor has it he’s going to be sending Christians to reeducation camps.)
[/QUOTE]
Well Der Trih seems unhappy with Democracy and/or Christians so I was just suggesting he live somewhere that would be inline with his personal convictions.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/75 "2008-07-09T23:06:55Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver]
Well Der Trih seems unhappy with Democracy and/or Christians so I was just suggesting he live somewhere that would be inline with his personal convictions.
[/QUOTE]
1. I don’t see that he has a “problem” with Democracy-I think he has a problem with the linking of Democracy and Christianity.
2. Would you suggest that Christians who have a problem with our (supposedly)secular government move out of the country if it bothers them?
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### Author:  [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/76 "2008-07-09T23:37:34Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver]
Well Der Trih seems unhappy with Democracy and/or Christians so I was just suggesting he live somewhere that would be inline with his personal convictions.
[/QUOTE]
How about a place where the Constitution loudly and clearly proclaims that there’ll be no inherent difference between color, race, creed nor political affiliation?
Because if we are to belive that, he _already_ lives “somewhere in line with his convictions.”
With all due respect, mayhaps you’re the one who should be thinking of moving. Plenty of Theocracies around.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/77 "2008-07-09T23:45:39Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury]
How about a place where the Constitution loudly and clearly proclaims that there’ll be no inherent difference between color, race, creed nor political affiliation?
[/QUOTE]
Sounds suspiciously . . . **Communist** to me.
- looks suspiciously at **RedFury** ’s username \*
Hmmmmmm . . .
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/78 "2008-07-10T00:48:19Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver]
So how do you plan on fixing all the people who don’t like Christians?
[/QUOTE]
I’d suggest fixing the Christians. If they weren’t so unlikeable as a group (a fair number of them are okay - but the annoying ones are louder) then there wouldn’t be a problem, would there?
However I don’t have a plan for doing this - I’m not practiced in meddling to horrible degrees in other people’s lives.
And, regarding the OP, I think that a lot of theistic americans see the US as “God’s Country”, and therefore that being in the US’s army is like being in God’s army. Especially since we mostly fight against godless communists and heathens of various flavors nowadays.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/79 "2008-07-10T04:53:23Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury]
How about a place where the Constitution loudly and clearly proclaims that there’ll be no inherent difference between color, race, creed nor political affiliation?
Because if we are to belive that, he _already_ lives “somewhere in line with his convictions.”
With all due respect, mayhaps you’re the one who should be thinking of moving. Plenty of Theocracies around.
[/QUOTE]
I’m pretty happy with the country I live in and the people who live in it.
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### Author:  [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/80 "2008-07-10T17:23:29Z")
[QUOTE=davidw]
When Jesus praised the Roman soldier’s faith (Luke 7:1-10), he didn’t then turn around and tell him he had to leave the Roman army. When Peter baptised Cornelius (Acts 10), a Roman soldier, he didn’t tell him to leave the military. When soldiers asked John the Baptist what they should do (Luke 3:14), he told them “Don’t extort money or make false accusations. And be content with your pay.” He didn’t tell them they had to leave the military. So if Jesus, Peter, and John the Baptist were okay with military service, why shouldn’t I be?
[/QUOTE]
In a board that makes it a near requirement to misquote, half quote and not quote the bible, this is a particularly egregious example of putting words in the bible that it simply does not say. :rolleyes: ☹ :smack: :dubious:
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