# How do devout Christians justify military service?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 8, 2008, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666 "2008-07-08T07:05:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2008, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/101 "2008-07-12T06:43:19Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2]
If God had actually done everything possible to avoid having people go to Hell, then _nobody would go there_. This is **God** we’re talking about here. He can forgive sins effortlessly. (Jesus makes a regular habit of it.) That God chooses not to forgive some people is _his_ choice, and that he makes that choice _proves_ that all the people he sends to hell, he _wants_ to be there.
[/quote]
You appear to have many misconceptions about Christian doctrine. Let me address them one at a time.
First of all, God did do everything possible to avoid having people go to Hell.
Second, God cannot forgive sins effortlessly. It took Him quite a bit of effort to do so.
Thirdly, God has chosen to forgive _all_ people. Some people are not reconciled to God because they chose to reject His forgiveness. A grant of forgiveness requires the agreement of the grantee, just like anything else. If you grant me five thousand bucks and I respond by ripping up your check, there’s nothing you can do to force me to accept the grant.
Fourthly, God does not send people to Hell. People choose to be sinners. God’s grace provides the means to reach Heaven and thereby avoid Hell.
> [@](#):
>
> Also, it’s clear from the bible that the satan character is utterly incapable of resisting God’s or Jesus’s will for even a second. One “Get the behind me” and he’s gone. Not much of an adversary. (An excellent scapegoat, though.)
Again, completely incorrect. Satan resists God throughout the Bible, through almost the end of Revelations. Satan cannot defeat God, but can certainly _resist_ the will of God. There’s no reason to believe that Satan had to obey the “away from me!” command, rather Satan realized that tempting Jesus was a lost cause so he gave it up.
> [@](#):
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> In short, God made hell and allows satan to rule there and torture there, much the same way your average james bond villian keeps a pool full of pirhanas.
God did not make Hell.
(I’m not sure whether the major churches have an explanation for who made Hell. The only explanation I’ve heard comes from John Milton, who’s basic theory as this. God gave Satan & Co. the boot from Heaven, they went crashing downwards and landed at the bottom of primordial chaos and decided to found Hell there.)
> [@](#):
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> Are there alternative ways to get everlasting life besides believing in Jesus? No? Then the logic was fine as originally given.
Yes, of course there are. It’s just a hell (ahem) of a lot easier with Jesus.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2008, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/102 "2008-07-12T06:57:47Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Fair dos. 🙂 Hey, the sum total of what i’ve read of it is the parts you’ve quoted, so if you could point me over to an abridged version on the net i’d be quite obliged.
[/quote]
The problem is that St. Thomas’ writings are so far-ranging that even abridgements can grow quite lengthy. I believe, as often happens, that Chesterton wrote the best introduction and explanation of St. Thomas in his [biography](http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Aquinas-Francis-Assisi-Introductions/dp/0898709458/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215845198&sr=1-3), which also covers lots of useful historical background. The text is also [available](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100331.txt) from Project Gutenberg.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2008, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/103 "2008-07-12T07:07:27Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
When I fought in the first Persian Gulf War, I prayed like a mother at night, but when daylight hit and we had to round 'em up and head on out, _I put my Christianity aside_, so to speak (I’m not very devout anyway, raised Catholic by Italians, fell away, you get the idea).
You have to. You simply cannot be troubled by moral and spiritual conflicts on a battlefield or you will get yourself or your comrades-in-arms into potential lethal danger. That’s what the priest back at the base camp is for, after-the-fact consolation and blessings.
There is no way around the fact that killing someone you do not know is incongruous with the teachings of Jesus Christ. You basically have to console yourself with the fact that you have sinned and through repentance can expect forgiveness.
At least, that’s what this non-practicing Christian believes. At least, I hope so.
[/QUOTE]
For me, who’s never been within a thousand miles of a real battlefield, this is fascinating to read. I can definitely see the logic of what you’re saying here. Obviously the possibility of laying it aside is more doable for some than for others.
There’s a story that on Christmas in 1915, two brigades of British and German soldiers met in “no man’s land” between the trenches, had a party, played soccer, shared food and drinks with each other, and had a grand old time. The next day they went back to their trenches and resumed to process of killing each other. Some might say that this proves the lowly nature of the human race, since the soldiers followed commands to wage war even while knowing their enemies were not bad people. Yet both groups of soldiers certain thought their cause was necessary for the survival of their nation and of civilization.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2008, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/104 "2008-07-12T10:24:25Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
God did not make Hell.
[/quote]
If God created the universe, and is omnipotent and omniscient, then he as good as made Hell.
> [@](#):
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> (I’m not sure whether the major churches have an explanation for who made Hell. The only explanation I’ve heard comes from John Milton, who’s basic theory as this. God gave Satan & Co. the boot from Heaven, they went crashing downwards and landed at the bottom of primordial chaos and decided to found Hell there.)
You realise _Paradise Lost_ is a poem, not church doctrine, right? Milton made a lot of shit up out of whole cloth, AFAICT - there doesn’t seem to be much biblical precedent for Satan creating Hell. Certainly Revelation 20 seems to treat it as a place prepared for Satan by God.:
“1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time…10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/105 "2008-07-12T13:35:48Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Can you explain how it is like that, with specifics?
[/quote]
Yes. MLK = God. KKK = God’s creation. South = God’s creation. Racism = God’s law. Painting people black = The drives, desires and original sin God saddled humanity with. Please at least try to think before asking questions.
> [@](#):
>
> That’s an interesting comment, but not relevant, since I am suggesting no such thing. (Honestly or otherwise.) I am suggesting the mainstream Christian doctrine, which has no relationship to what you described in this sentence. If you’d like to address what I’m saying, rather than making up fictional arguments and then countering them, I’d be interested in hearing what you have to say.
God created the universe. Created satan. Created the rules by which people are damned. He didn’t do everything possible to keep people out of hell. He decided what it takes for people to get into hell, decided that the punishment is eternal, and decided that hell exists in the first place. So please, read up on Christianity and actually think about it, instead of simply parroting chapter and verse without engaging the reason God gave you.
> [@](#):
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> I like debates bu dislike insults. If you offer another post devoted to insults, I’ll assume that you have nothing but insults to offer, and will treat that as your admission that you were wrong and I was right.
Are you sure you like debates? You seem to be simply denying obvious arguments because they don’t line up with the happy-fuzzy god emotions you’ve grown to feel. You ignore arguments and ask for clarification when they are as clear as angel tears.
I’m sorry if you’re insulted, but you’re stating obvious sillyness. If hell exists god created it. God created the laws of the universe and dictated morality like parker brothers dictated the rules of monopoly.
> [@](#):
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> If I ever start doing so in the future, I’ll keep that in find.
Okay!
> [@](#):
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> I am actually thinking, hence there’s no need to pretend.
>
> Good day.
And a good day to you.
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### Author:  [@Public\_Animal\_No.9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Public_Animal_No.9)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/106 "2008-07-12T15:52:35Z")
I guess it was inevitable that this thread would evolve into what Christianity is and isn’t. Certainly there are innumerable variations on the theme, from Mother Teresa to the Inquisition and beyond. My personal understanding is that Christians are called to live their lives as Jesus did, which to me implies that the goal of life on Earth is not to be successful in human terms, but to prepare oneself for the next life in heaven. That means that if an enemy attacks and is preparing to kill you and your loved ones, then resistance is not appropriate. From that perspective, military service would not be appropriate for a Christian, to address the OP. There are clearly passages in the Bible that justify, and even glorify, military conquest, even by following God’s instructions. Those are primarily in the Old Testament, however, and are to be reinterpreted in light of Jesus’s teachings (turn the other cheek, etc.).
I would like to say that I am able to follow my understanding of Christianity, but I don’t even come close. Whether I (or anyone else, for that matter) will burn in hell for that, I don’t know. My personal beliefs teach that by having faith, I will be accepted into heaven, and I do believe that.
But all the pronouncements of who will and won’t be in heaven are, to me, pretty much speculation. I tend to have a pretty inclusive view of who will be there, and I include some pretty nasty characters - whether a person follows one specific set of rituals or another (or even none of them) is irrelevant in my view. God gets to decide, and the Bible is full of examples of what I’ve heard called God’s extreme forgiveness.
Does that mean everyone gets by without any punishment at all? I think that there will be plenty of post-life punishment for those who deserve it (again, according to God’s decision, not any person’s interpretation). In the group of those who deserve it are those who use Christianity to justify the multitude of horrible (and mundane) actions that increase their own status, exclude and persecute others, commit murder and extortion, and on and on. I personally think there could well be a lot more non-Christians in heaven than Christians.
I don’t claim that this interpretation is free of inconsistencies or paradoxes - they’re all over the place. But trying to apply logic to faith is missing the point - it’s not logical to begin with, and faith doesn’t follow the rules of logic. That may be considered an easy out, but as far as I’m concerned, believe what you want. My understanding is that God want everyone to believe in him, but if you don’t, he’ll be able to deal with it how he sees fit.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/107 "2008-07-13T00:34:34Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
If God created the universe, and is omnipotent and omniscient, then he as good as made Hell.
[/quote]
Hell is not part of the universe.
> [@](#):
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> You realise _Paradise Lost_ is a poem, not church doctrine, right?
It seems a safe bet that I do, since I already said that it wasn’t church doctrine.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/108 "2008-07-13T00:43:31Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Hell is not part of the universe.
[/QUOTE]
😕
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### Author:  [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2008, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/109 "2008-07-13T04:44:28Z")
Hell, if it exists, by defenition HAS to exist in accordance with the Universe. We can fall back on the fact that the known Universe is yet completely unknowable, and when we do figure it all out, I’m sure we can pin God and the concept of Hell on another ambiguous defenition.
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### Author:  [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/110 "2008-07-13T04:57:48Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
.
Churches that I have attended have placed the teachings of Jesus at a very low priority, far below the judgmental teachings of Paul and the particular parts of the OT that allow them to feel superior to others. The teachings of Jesus seem to be an inconvenience to be explained away, as has been demonstrated by other responses in this thread. Christians seem to me to be very quick to get Jesus crucified so he can’t open his mouth, and then continue with their self-aggrandizement and judging of others.
[/QUOTE]
Hmmm. got me thinking. This just might explain the rise of Islam out of Christianity.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/111 "2008-07-13T12:42:42Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Hell is not part of the universe.
[/QUOTE]
If it isn’t part of the universe (the Universe being all that is), what exactly is it? And are you saying God has no power there?
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
It seems a safe bet that I do, since I already said that it wasn’t church doctrine.
[/QUOTE]
I thought it needed re-emphasising, since you seemed to be taking the poet’s version (that Satan created Hell) over the Bible’s (that Hell is a place prepared by God for Satan). I notice you didn’t address the point about Revelation.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/112 "2008-07-14T02:57:08Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Hell is not part of the universe.
[/QUOTE]
I believe I just saw your credibility accelerate off to the aforementioned locale.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2008, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/113 "2008-07-14T05:42:06Z")
But the Bible says outright that God created Hell:
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
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### Author:  [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/114 "2008-07-14T06:06:20Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
If you grant me five thousand bucks and I respond by ripping up your check, there’s nothing you can do to force me to accept the grant.
[/quote]
Well sure but then I’m not your god. I thought he was omnipotent, or is that only when it suits?
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-devout-christians-justify-military-service/455666/115 "2008-07-14T18:04:40Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
You appear to have many misconceptions about Christian doctrine. Let me address them one at a time.
First of all, God did do everything possible to avoid having people go to Hell.
[/QUOTE]
Says who? Some major sect of Christainity, or just you?
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Second, God cannot forgive sins effortlessly. It took Him quite a bit of effort to do so.
[/QUOTE]
Says who? Jesus does it regularly without breaking a sweat.
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Thirdly, God has chosen to forgive _all_ people. Some people are not reconciled to God because they chose to reject His forgiveness. A grant of forgiveness requires the agreement of the grantee, just like anything else. If you grant me five thousand bucks and I respond by ripping up your check, there’s nothing you can do to force me to accept the grant.
[/QUOTE]
You can’t rip up forgiveness. If I choose to forgive you of something _there is not a thing you can do to force me not to_. And I’m not even God!
(You gotta watch those analogies. If wishes were horses beggars would ride, but that doesn’t mean beggars can ride wishes. The point being that analogies aren’t always true.)
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Fourthly, God does not send people to Hell. People choose to be sinners. God’s grace provides the means to reach Heaven and thereby avoid Hell.
[/QUOTE]
Says who? Not that grace/forgiveness is how He circumvents his judgements, but rather that He isn’t going to have a Judgement Day at _all_?
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Again, completely incorrect. Satan resists God throughout the Bible, through almost the end of Revelations. Satan cannot defeat God, but can certainly _resist_ the will of God. There’s no reason to believe that Satan had to obey the “away from me!” command, rather Satan realized that tempting Jesus was a lost cause so he gave it up.
[/QUOTE]
Sure, the caricature called Satan keeps popping up here and there - he’s the stock villian. However, I’ve never heard anything _anywhere_ that indicates that satan has the power to resist God once God gets around to doing something about him. (Prior to that, sure he can. So?) It’s pretty tenuous to claim that Satan always retreats at that first hint of Godly power because he _loses interest_.
So: Says who?
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
God did not make Hell.
(I’m not sure whether the major churches have an explanation for who made Hell. The only explanation I’ve heard comes from John Milton, who’s basic theory as this. God gave Satan & Co. the boot from Heaven, they went crashing downwards and landed at the bottom of primordial chaos and decided to found Hell there.)
[/QUOTE]
This has been contradicted quite thorougly, but what the heck - the bible is notorious for supporting both sides of the issue, so somebody probably believes this. Says who?
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
Yes, of course there are. It’s just a hell (ahem) of a lot easier with Jesus.
[/QUOTE]
Regarding there being alternatives: Says who? Besides being perfect to start with (which I understand that mainstream christanity asserts that nobody (else) is).
In summation - I highly doubt that your views are at all representave of the majority of christians. I have no doubt that _you_ hold them, but the fact that you have beliefs and call yourself a Christian does not make you the One True Voice of christianity.
Feel free to show that, in fact, most christains _do_ believe like this, though. I’d be very surprised, but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible.
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