# How do forensic matches work with shotguns? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 30, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313 "2016-09-30T21:14:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/21 "2016-10-04T03:35:40Z")
How does one pronounce “saboted”? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/22 "2016-10-04T03:47:13Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > How does one pronounce “saboted”? Well, whatever you do, don’t correct William Shatner’s pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/23 "2016-10-04T03:48:28Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > There certainly ARE ways that forensic science can provide evidence for shotgun blasts. Specifically, they can test two different shotgun pellets to see if they came from the same batch at the same factory. Tiny differences in the exact composition of the metal itself are detectable… [This is bunk.](http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/forensics_on_trial.html) > [@from cited article](#): > > The composition of castings from a single pot sometimes varied, while the composition of lead in different pots sometimes matched. That meant that bullets made from two different batches of lead could wrongly appear to have come from the same pot. In short, the chemical compositions are not like fingerprints. Well, they would be like fingerprints if your fingerprints could change during your lifetime and someone else’s fingerprints could change to match yours. A lot of forensic “science” is far from scientific. A lot of times a forensic “match” just means “we think this guy did it, well, just because”. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/24 "2016-10-04T14:20:04Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > [This is bunk.](http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/forensics_on_trial.html) > > In short, the chemical compositions are not like fingerprints. Well, they would be like fingerprints if your fingerprints could change during your lifetime and someone else’s fingerprints could change to match yours. > > A lot of forensic “science” is far from scientific. A lot of times a forensic “match” just means “we think this guy did it, well, just because”. Thanks excavating. That’s a great article and anyone who cares about criminal forensics should read it. Interestingly, I don’t know that much about whether my fingerprints can change and how likely it is that someone else’s fingerprints (particularly “partial prints”) match mine. The FBI fundamentally assumes that our fingerprints are unique and that they stay fixed. I haven’t seen studies showing these things to be true. It’s exactly those types of assumptions that the FBI lab has been making for years, without being questioned, that has led to some junk science sending people away to jail. We need to ask these questions about all the FBI’s forensic science. Here is one of my favorite paragraphs from the article: > [@](#): > > After retiring from the FBI in 2000, [former FBI metallurgist William] Tobin partnered with Erik Randich, a forensics consultant and metallurgist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. The duo set out to examine whether there was any statistical basis to bullet-lead matching. Wouldn’t it have been better for Mr. Tobin to determine the scientific validity of his forensic work when he was still using it to convict people? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/25 "2016-10-04T14:39:51Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > Thanks excavating. That’s a great article and anyone who cares about criminal forensics should read it … [snip] It’s a good read for people interested in metallurgy as well. The author does dance around a bit and run a little loose with the data, but that’s understandable since there’s very little scientific data available. It does seem a shame to convict people using LEO guesswork as hard evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/26 "2016-10-04T14:46:06Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > How does one pronounce “saboted”? Good question. The dictionary doesn’t list a verb form of ‘sabot.’ In French the pronunciation of the terminal ‘t’ changes when you go from ‘sabot’ to ‘sabotage,’ but that’s a French word following French pronunciation rules for the use of a latin-derived suffix. My personal preference would be ‘say-bowed’ rather than ‘say-boated.’ Although I think it’s weird that the first syllable of ‘sabotage’ is pronounced ‘sah-’, while the first syllable of ‘sabot’ (describing the expended material around a tube-launched projectile) is pronounced ‘say-’. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/27 "2016-10-05T01:15:27Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > #2 They can test the husband’s hands for gunshot residue to see if he has fired a firearm recently. > > #3 They can test the wife’s clothing for gunshot residue to determine if the shot was fired from less than six feet away. These ones are pretty much fantasy too. ---
**Author:** ![oliversarmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb8c5e/32.png) [@oliversarmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliversarmy)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/28 "2016-10-05T01:57:49Z")
Just strike your forensic matches on the stock, not the steel. They should light.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/29 "2016-10-05T14:07:22Z")
_[They Were Having a Sale at the Gunstore](http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/jukes.shtml)_ > [@Leslie Fish](#): > > Now Roy Jukes was good at house burgling and still thought he’d escape without harm > When the owner rolled in with a shotgun > Braced on his wheelchair’s arm > “Well, they’ll bust you for shooting–” Roy started, but the man’s shotgun cut off the lot > And he said, as he muscled Roy’s corpse out the door > “There are no ballistics on shot.” ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/30 "2016-10-05T16:20:50Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Good question. The dictionary doesn’t list a verb form of ‘sabot.’ In French the pronunciation of the terminal ‘t’ changes when you go from ‘sabot’ to ‘sabotage,’ but that’s a French word following French pronunciation rules for the use of a latin-derived suffix. > > My personal preference would be ‘say-bowed’ rather than ‘say-boated.’ Although I think it’s weird that the first syllable of ‘sabotage’ is pronounced ‘sah-’, while the first syllable of ‘sabot’ (describing the expended material around a tube-launched projectile) is pronounced ‘say-’. Actually, the noun is pronounced “Saa-boat-'tay-jee.” Cite: [https://youtu.be/gMJIRTCK--I](https://youtu.be/gMJIRTCK--I) (I don’t know which is weirder: that I remembered this Bugs Bunny or that the 5-seconds clip is on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/31 "2016-10-05T17:50:48Z")
This was actually a clue in a Spider-Man comic book I read years ago. He asked a police detective about a murder committed with a shotgun, and the detective talked about finding a forensic match to another murder, or something like that. A few issues later, Spider-Man figured out the detective was the killer with other clues, and is angry at himself for not remembering that it was impossible to do forensic matches on shotguns. The villain called himself Sin-Eater, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313/32 "2016-10-06T00:13:04Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > Wouldn’t it have been better for Mr. Tobin to determine the scientific validity of his forensic work when he was still using it to convict people? As a current government employee, I’ll say that performing tasks on the job that aren’t part of your job duties can lead to ethics violations and any number of potential forms of discipline, and also doing things that reflect poorly on your agency is bad for your career. It’s almost tradition to do stuff that undermines your former employer once you leave government employment, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-forensic-matches-work-with-shotguns/767313.md?page=1)