# How do hockey substitutions work? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 18, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460 "2010-01-18T20:01:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/21 "2010-01-20T21:07:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Some teams will sometimes use a specific forward line and a specific defensive pair; a five-man unit, in effect. The 1980s Soviet national teams did this a lot. The Red Wings had five Russians playing as a unit for awhile back in the 90’s: Larionov, Fetisov, Federov, Konstantinov & Kozlov. The joke around these parts one year when they exited the playoff early was that they acquired a new player: Summerov. With regard to ‘third’ goalies, I think each team has a member they consider their emergency goalie; not an official designation, just a casual understanding. > [@](#): > > Back in the old days (pre-1964), NHL teams only dressed one goalie. The home team provided the spare for both teams. What I have always heard is that the home team’s trainer was the back up (for either team). Not sure if this is true, though I believe it is. ---
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/22 "2010-01-20T21:14:07Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > What I have always heard is that the home team’s trainer was the back up (for either team). Not sure if this is true, though I believe it is. This is certainly possible. The two most notable emergency replacements that I can think of offhand are [Julian Klymkiw](http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=18581) and [Joe Schaefer](http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=18691). Both guys were on the training staff of their respective teams (Detroit and the Rangers, respectively,) though I think Schaefer also was the team statistician. Schaefer was the emergency back up when Montreal’s Jacques Plante took a howitzer off the face and came back with his mask. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/23 "2010-01-20T22:54:13Z")
I’ve heard some NHL teams pick a 3rd guy who could play goalie if the first 2 guys are injured. Normally it’s a guy who played goalie in the past. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/24 "2010-01-21T02:31:23Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > The Red Wings had five Russians playing as a unit for awhile back in the 90’s: Larionov, Fetisov, Federov, Konstantinov & Kozlov. > > The joke around these parts one year when they exited the playoff early was that they acquired a new player: Summerov. Cute joke, but frankly that line kicked ass, and yes won a championship with it too (and was only prevented from winning another with these same 5 players next year solely because one of them suffered severe brain damage in a car wreck in the offseason afterwards). ---
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/25 "2010-01-21T02:47:08Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Cute joke, but frankly that line kicked ass, and yes won a championship with it too (and was only prevented from winning another with these same 5 players next year solely because one of them suffered severe brain damage in a car wreck in the offseason afterwards). For that, thank the limo driver who was drunk and high on pot IIRC. Detroit still managed to repeat the next season though. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/26 "2010-01-21T03:10:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Cute joke, but frankly that line kicked ass Absolutely, I was not suggesting that they didn’t. I used to love watching when the Russian Five were on the ice. After the limo accident, the Wings had another Russian Five for a short while, this time with Dmitri Mironov. ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/27 "2010-01-21T05:20:40Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > I know the Habs once called in Kim St-Pierre (goalie for women’s Team Canada) as a second goalie during practices when one of the regulars is sick or injured but not needing to be replaced by the farm team goalie. I always thought that was rather cool. And I just found out that she also has a 1-1-0 record playing on the men’s McGill Redmen team, which is also pretty cool! The Canes sometimes use their TV color commentator, [Tripp Tracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripp_Tracy) as a [del]target[/del] backup practice goalie. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/28 "2010-01-21T16:02:07Z")
> [@KennerTheGreat](#): > > Sometimes as well, a team will elect to go with 13 forwards and only 5 defencemen, or alternately 7 defencemen and only 11 forwards. Teams are allowed to dress 18 skaters and 2 goaltenders. Generally the skaters brake down as 12 forwards and 6 defencemen, but depending on injuries or slumps or the coach’s whim, etc., he may dress or scratch somebody. > > Some teams will sometimes use a specific forward line and a specific defensive pair; a five-man unit, in effect. The 1980s Soviet national teams did this a lot. Their front five of forwards Vladimir Krutov, Igor Larionov and Sergei Makarov; and defencemen Viacheslav Fetisov and Alexei Kasatonov were known as the Green Unit, for the colour of the sweaters they wore in practice. Larionov and Fetisov are in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Makarov probably could be. Kasatonov had a few decent years in the NHL even though he didn’t come over until age 31. As for Krutov, although he was probably the deadliest sniper of the three forwards; his conditioning left much to be desired. It was once said of him “He can stickhandle past everything except a McDonald’s.” The Red Wings had a “Russian Five” line in the late '90s and early into the decade, including Fetisov and Larionov. Their passing was impeccable. Literally every pass was right on the tape. It really was special to behold. Edited to add: Okay, I was severely beaten in getting to this point, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/29 "2010-01-21T16:11:55Z")
Hey, does anyone remember the Wings’ Russian Five? Didn’t ESPN sometimes call them the -ov line? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/30 "2010-01-21T16:39:28Z")
Hmmm. Maybe I got confused. I was living in the Bay Area when the Sharks had Larionov playing with Sergei Makarov and Johan Garpenlov - Wikipedia says that was the -ov line. Larionov and Makarov had been linemates on the original (Soviet) Russian Five. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/31 "2010-01-21T16:49:56Z")
I don’t think anyone has made it this clear for the OP: Playing properly, a professional hockey player should be completely out of gas after a minute or so, with some able to stretch that time slightly based on conditioning and the pace of play. It is completely normal to be almost to the point of non-functioning when hockey skating for 1:30. Sometimes, a player or a whole line will get stuck on the ice, and they will actually resort to standing still, simply because they cannot muster enough energy to actually continue skating/playing. This happens sometimes when short-handed, but can happen at other times. Hockey **is** that exhausting. . ---
**Author:** ![cuberdon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@cuberdon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuberdon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/32 "2010-01-22T05:07:15Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > I don’t think anyone has made it this clear for the OP: No? > [@LouiseE](#): > > A big part of it is to have a fresh set of skates on the ice. Sprinting, maneuvering, checking and being checked take away your wind pretty quickly. FWIW, I wondered that myself before playing briefly in a league. Once I started playing, holy cow it was obvious why we switched lines. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/33 "2010-01-22T06:10:10Z")
One of the most famous games in Stanley Cup history was in 1928 when New York Rangers goalie Lorne Chabot was injured in game 2. There was another team’s goalie in the stands (Alex Connell of Ottawa) but the Montreal Maroons insisted the Rangers use a player under contract. So 44 year old GM-Coach Lester Patrick suited up (he was a former defenseman) and led to Rangers to an overtime victory. The next day the Rangers signed Joe “Red Light” Miller who played well enough to enable the Rangers to win the Stanley Cup. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/34 "2010-01-22T16:03:33Z")
I’ve been reading with interest, but hadn’t popped back in to thank everyone for the direct responses and the related discussions, all of which have been really interesting to me. I’m looking forward to my next Kings’ game, and I’ll definitely be paying a bit more attention, now. By all means, carry on! ---
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/35 "2010-01-22T20:38:12Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > One of the most famous games in Stanley Cup history was in 1928 when New York Rangers goalie Lorne Chabot was injured in game 2. There was another team’s goalie in the stands (Alex Connell of Ottawa) but the Montreal Maroons insisted the Rangers use a player under contract. So 44 year old GM-Coach Lester Patrick suited up (he was a former defenseman) and led to Rangers to an overtime victory. > The next day the Rangers signed Joe “Red Light” Miller who played well enough to enable the Rangers to win the Stanley Cup. Probably a larger reason that the Maroons wouldn’t let the Rangers use Alex Connell was that he was probably the best goalie in the league at the time. During the 1927-28 season, Connell set the all-time record for the longest shutout streak, at 461 minutes and 29 seconds. Yes, this happened in an era when forward passing was not permitted in the offensive zone. Still, it’s his record. Ten years after Patrick’s heroics, the Chicago Black Hawks were without their number one goalie, Mike Karakas (one of the first really good U.S. born players), in the Stanley Cup Finals against the Leafs. Toronto magnanimously let them use their minor league goalie, Alfie Moore, in the first game of the finals. Moore stood on his head as the Black Hawks won, 3-1. After that, the Leafs wouldn’t let the Hawks use Moore anymore. Chicago lost the next game with their own minor league goalie, Paul Goodman, but Karakas returned for game 3, and the Hawks won games 3 and 4 to win the Stanley Cup, after a regular season record of 14-25-9. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/36 "2011-10-12T18:42:11Z")
Bumping this thread for the newby fans of the Washington Capitals. Many of them are ticked off at the coaching staff for the two too-many-men penalties against the Caps in the recent game against Tampa Bay. The only thing the coaches do regarding changing the lines is to tell the players which line is up next. After that it is up to the players to signal each other - from the ice to the bench - when they intend to come off. Example: left wing A is tired … left wing B on the bench knows it is his turn on the ice next. Typically LW-A signals with a wave of his stick or glove and the two players then choreograph their own change. The player on the bench is allowed to jump into play when the player on the ice is within five feet of the bench - _and clearly intends to get off the ice._ If either of the two players botch the exchange and the end result is that both of them wind up _in the play of the game_ the result is too many men on the ice. A two minute penalty will then be called. Teams practice line changes but when it doesn’t happen in real game time it is the players fault. Not the coaches. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/37 "2011-10-12T19:10:41Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > Bumping this thread for the newby fans of the Washington Capitals. Many of them are ticked off at the coaching staff for the two too-many-men penalties against the Caps in the recent game against Tampa Bay. > > The only thing the coaches do regarding changing the lines is to tell the players which line is up next. After that it is up to the players to signal each other - from the ice to the bench - when they intend to come off. > > Example: left wing A is tired … left wing B on the bench knows it is his turn on the ice next. Typically LW-A signals with a wave of his stick or glove and the two players then choreograph their own change. > > The player on the bench is allowed to jump into play when the player on the ice is within five feet of the bench - _and clearly intends to get off the ice._ If either of the two players botch the exchange and the end result is that both of them wind up _in the play of the game_ the result is too many men on the ice. A two minute penalty will then be called. > > Teams practice line changes but when it doesn’t happen in real game time it is the players fault. Not the coaches. This is not exactly the case. During regular season game the teams will prefer to “roll all 4 lines” especially if they are up a goal or two. A trailing team will obviously try to get their scoring lines on the ice more often and shake up their lines. The coaches are far more active in determining line changes than that but it is the players that must execute those changes properly. Secondly, there are 4 lines of forwards and 3 defensive pairings which change either seperately or “wholesale” depending on several factors; the foremost being to match your lines and defencemen to counter the opposing teams lines. Coaches may mix and match line-ups, substitute any player, add extra an skater, change defensive pairings, etc.. all on the fly. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460/38 "2011-10-12T19:22:57Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > This is not exactly the case. During regular season game the teams will prefer to “roll all 4 lines” especially if they are up a goal or two. A trailing team will obviously try to get their scoring lines on the ice more often and shake up their lines. > The coaches are far more active in determining line changes than that but **it is the players that must execute those changes properly.** > > Secondly, there are 4 lines of forwards and 3 defensive pairings which change either seperately or “wholesale” depending on several factors; the foremost being to match your lines and defencemen to counter the opposing teams lines. > > Coaches may mix and match line-ups, substitute any player, add extra an skater, change defensive pairings, etc.. all on the fly. My point wasn’t about _which line_ is up next, but rather _how_ the change is executed. However, thanks for clarifying my point which I bolded and italicized above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-hockey-substitutions-work/525460.md?page=1)