# How do I beat this argument? \[Humans throughout human history did it this way, so you should too\]
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 7, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134 "2016-05-07T02:21:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/21 "2016-05-07T14:24:45Z")
> [@Mr.Insaneo](#):
>
> “Humans throughout human history did it this way, so you should too”
“We’ve learned that there’s a better way.”
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### Author:  [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/22 "2016-05-07T14:56:19Z")
Break into a chorus of Tradition. Ask the person how much better humans would be if everyone had been allowed to use their talents to the fullest, instead of just straight, white, Christian men.
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### Author:  [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/23 "2016-05-07T15:06:17Z")
Four words: “evolution is not teleological”. If we always did things the way our ancestors did, whales would never have colonized the ocean.
Any particular change may be good or bad- and a great many of them, especially in the last 25 years have been bad- but the fact that it’s a change is neither here nor there.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/24 "2016-05-07T15:10:29Z")
Throughout history, navies used wooden sailboats.
But then they switched to ironclad steamships.
And then nuclear-powered aircraft carriers.
Throughout history, they’ve innovated.
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### Author:  [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/25 "2016-05-07T15:17:38Z")
In the UK we have a TV program about people building their dream home called Grand Designs, Some of them have imported some innovated ideas from mainland Europe, but you never see them brought into common use. In the UK we have a housing shortage, but we still continue to build houses out of little bricks in the wind and the rain, my question is why are we not using pre fabricated units made in factories?, we are told that it is to expensive, but not when you estimate the saving in time and the cost of wasted materials on your average building site.
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### Author:  [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/26 "2016-05-07T15:45:57Z")
Get them some leeches. Lots and lots of leeches.
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/27 "2016-05-07T17:36:15Z")
Ask them to demonstrate their stone knapping skills.
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### Author:  [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/28 "2016-05-07T18:20:10Z")
Throughout human history, people have eaten their food with their hands, and wiped their ass with leaves, so your friend should do this too.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/29 "2016-05-07T19:29:38Z")
> [@Mr.Insaneo](#):
>
> I feel it’s wrong, but I’m not sure what to say.
You don’t say anything.
You just show them that scene where the swordsman challenges Indiana Jones.
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/30 "2016-05-07T23:06:58Z")
I think there are very few people that you can actually “logic” out of an argument like that. Not only is the argument obviously unsound, it’s probably obviously unsound to the person making the argument. They already know that there are a million things that we do differently today than yesterday, and for the better.
But, if you want to actually move people forward towards change and compromise, the questions to explore is “what is the thing you are trying to accomplish by doing things that traditional way? Does that traditional way of doing things accomplish those goals satisfactorily? Does acting this way cause harm to other people? Are there other ways to act that lead to better outcomes for everybody involved?”
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/31 "2016-05-07T23:35:36Z")
The name for this fallacy is [appeal to tradition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition).
The problem is that tradition serves a purpose. Tradition is to culture what natural selection is to evolution. The tried and true ones survive the cut, the ones that cause problems fail. So there is some validity to the concept of tradition.
I can find info about the fallacy, but no real info on how to counteract it (ie, say this in response to it). I guess the best response is to discuss how we live in an age of enlightenment, and as a result many of the old ways of doing things are shown to be inefficient or immoral compared to alternatives. Then come up with examples.
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### Author:  [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/32 "2016-05-08T00:19:51Z")
> [@Mr.Insaneo](#):
>
> “Humans throughout human history did it this way, so you should too”
>
> At times I confront people using methods that are dangerous, time-consuming, etc. As a result, they defend themselves by saying that either they’ve always been taught this way since they were young or that humans throughout history, smarter, wiser, stronger, etc, than us have been doing it this way. Why challenge all of those people?
>
> I feel it’s wrong, but I’m not sure what to say. Can I get your insight on this?
>
> Thanks in advance!
I’m sure this has been mentioned already, but the most straight forward knockout argument is “Reductio ad absurdum”
19xx - at the advent of plane travel
Humans have always traveled along the surface, so we should keep doing that and not travel by air.
this argument against air travel follows the same form of "humans have always traveled ‘this way’ and leads to an absurd conclusion, ergo, this form of argument is invalid.
This is why I am inherently antagonistic against arguments that appeal to tradition for its own sake. A tradition might have real value, but not because it’s been practiced for a long time. This presumes some intrinsic value to the longevity of a tradition, that presumption is given no weight by me by default, if there is value it needs to be argued on its own.
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### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2016, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/33 "2016-05-08T03:38:38Z")
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> Get them some leeches. Lots and lots of leeches.
Or offer to open up a vein and take out a half pint of “bad blood” the next time they have a headache.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/34 "2016-05-08T20:13:46Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#):
>
> I have used this logic too.
>
> I ask if the practitioner thinks that the earlier humans derived the current solution at the first attempt. If they believe they did or don’t know I ask, “Well maybe we should try this other way to be sure it isn’t better?” If they think the ancient ones probably tried the other method I ask, “Shouldn’t we have a look at the other method and confirm that it is inferior?”
This is probably the single biggest difference between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives would ask why we need to try something new if the old way is working just fine. If it is working okay, then why take the chance of fucking it all up just on the hope or the whim that things might be a little better?
Yes, if you are growing crops in your backyard to eat on the guise that people have grown their own food for centuries, then you can look at tangible examples of those who eat just fine without growing their own food.
Your side seems to say that since some things have changed, then everything, without exception, should change at the first instance any change is proposed.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/35 "2016-05-08T20:30:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Drill through their skull to let the demons out.
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> Get them some leeches. Lots and lots of leeches.
Leeches are a very efficient means for sucking the demons out through the holes in their skull, as you sit and watch while gnawing on a raw boar leg.
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### Author:  [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2016, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/36 "2016-05-09T04:16:40Z")
There’s the (maybe apocryphal) quote from Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse”, implying a lack of imagination in people when it comes to change.
A perfect example comes to mind. In the late 1970s, a co-worker described what was essentially the internet to me, where we’d be able to order groceries or library books, for example, through our TV. It was silly, of course. I could already get groceries and library books by going to the grocery store and the library. Why bother doing it any differently?
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/37 "2016-05-09T05:28:34Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#):
>
> There’s the (maybe apocryphal) quote from Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse”, implying a lack of imagination in people when it comes to change.
>
> A perfect example comes to mind. In the late 1970s, a co-worker described what was essentially the internet to me, where we’d be able to order groceries or library books, for example, through our TV. It was silly, of course. I could already get groceries and library books by going to the grocery store and the library. Why bother doing it any differently?
Some change is demonstrably better. Change isn’t intrinsically good or bad.
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### Author:  [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2016, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/38 "2016-05-09T06:06:33Z")
Of course. I thought of putting that disclaimer in there but decided that, for one thing, it was kind of obvious, and for another, that change is inevitable anyway and, IMHO, is more often for the better than not.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2016, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/39 "2016-05-09T10:46:26Z")
I usually respond that they should “stop being a fucking moron”.
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### Author:  [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2016, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-beat-this-argument-humans-throughout-human-history-did-it-this-way-so-you-should-too/754134/40 "2016-05-09T10:54:56Z")
Children working in mines. Was ‘how it’s been done…forever!’, for a zillion years.
But who today could or would defend it? Times change, attitudes change.
And **THAT** ’s what has ‘always been, and always will be’.
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