How do I go about starting my own religion?

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann]
But my religion doesn’t recognize the IRS as a legit organization.
[/QUOTE]

Ah but the government they fund that protects your rights to freedom of religion, they are ok?

If you are looking to religion and NPO status as a cover for being a tax protester don’t bother. To be with it, its gotta be pretty big, and if its pretty big, the only way you are going to avoid an eventual audit is a repeat of the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX.

I have often wondered about the possibility of secular activity groups providing similar social structure and activity facilities as churches myself. Unfortunately as mentioned above, its alot of work.

22

[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann]
Actually my religion doesnt think money is legit either. I mean really, what is money? YOu see some digits on a paycheck…a ball player signs a contract fro 6 million dollars a year…a push of a button on your computer electronically adds or delets money into an account…Is any of this real? What if I hacked into a banks computer and changed all of the accounts, or what if I steal a credit card and charge a bunch of stuff on it? Who pays for that? Money is a ghost. It doesnt really exist. THe government spends it eventhough they dont have it–How can you spend something you dont have? How can you use something that doesnt yet exist? Large companies promise their workers retirement money, then they say, ooops, we dont got it, and its gone. Did it ever really exist? The workers thought it did. They made life decisions based on its existence. Then it wasnt there. :smack:
[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Money is a token, a chit, of how much you have contributed to the society as a whole. In exchange, you get a certain amount of stuff back from the rest of us.

If you’ve worked for one hour at a job making burgers and fries, we’ve all agreed that you’ve done $5.15 worth of contributing to society. Yes, $5.15 is arbitrary. We could just as well say “three-tenths of a sheep” or “10 oobleks”. The number and unit don’t matter, just that we’ve agreed that’s what your labor is valued at. In exchange for that amount of work, you’re entitled to $5.15 worth of stuff, be it food, rent, DVDs or cocaine. If you want more stuff, you have to do more work, and your paycheck is how we keep track of how much work you’ve contributed.

Loans and credit are you promising to contribute that amount of work to our community in the future and us giving you the goods or services up front. If you suck at keeping those promises, we won’t give you stuff up front any more.

Hacking into banks is you cheating. You didn’t and don’t intend to do the work that your acount says you did. That’s why you go to jail for it if you’re caught. You’ve not played by the rules, and so you get a penalty.

Money itself is meaningless, of course. It’s green pieces of fabric (not paper) with not-so-pretty designs on them. But they are the scorecard by which we determine how much stuff we give you, based on how much stuff you’ve given us. They’re more convenient to fold up and put in your pocket than sheep and chickens or bars of gold.
Frankly, what you have sounds more like the sophomoric whinings of a poli.sci. major than a religion. Who are your deities? What are your teachings? What are your beliefs? How does one attain enlightenment? What’s the meaning of life? What is your favorite color?

At least a few of these need to be addressed to consider oneself a religion.

23

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
At least a few of these need to be addressed to consider oneself a religion.
[/QUOTE]

Although religion is not a requirement of a NPO

24

[QUOTE=drachillix]
Although religion is not a requirement of a NPO
[/QUOTE]

No, but it’s what the OP was asking about. It’s in the title.

25

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Seriously? Money is a token, a chit, of how much you have contributed to the society as a whole. In exchange, you get a certain amount of stuff back from the rest of us.

If you’ve worked for one hour at a job making burgers and fries, we’ve all agreed that you’ve done $5.15 worth of contributing to society. Yes, $5.15 is arbitrary. We could just as well say “three-tenths of a sheep” or “10 oobleks”. The number and unit don’t matter, just that we’ve agreed that’s what your labor is valued at. In exchange for that amount of work, you’re entitled to $5.15 worth of stuff, be it food, rent, DVDs or cocaine. If you want more stuff, you have to do more work, and your paycheck is how we keep track of how much work you’ve contributed.

Loans and credit are you promising to contribute that amount of work to our community in the future and us giving you the goods or services up front. If you suck at keeping those promises, we won’t give you stuff up front any more.

Hacking into banks is you cheating. You didn’t and don’t intend to do the work that your acount says you did. That’s why you go to jail for it if you’re caught. You’ve not played by the rules, and so you get a penalty.

Money itself is meaningless, of course. It’s green pieces of fabric (not paper) with not-so-pretty designs on them. But they are the scorecard by which we determine how much stuff we give you, based on how much stuff you’ve given us. They’re more convenient to fold up and put in your pocket than sheep and chickens or bars of gold.
Frankly, what you have sounds more like the sophomoric whinings of a poli.sci. major than a religion. Who are your deities? What are your teachings? What are your beliefs? How does one attain enlightenment? What’s the meaning of life? What is your favorite color?

At least a few of these need to be addressed to consider oneself a religion.
[/QUOTE]

Not in my religion they don’t.
You say loans and credit is your promise to contibute your amount to society in the future. But what if society changes, what if society doesnt keep ITS promises? Does that make your promise null and void? So if money is just broken promises, then how can it really exist?

And as far as playing by the rules–who’s rules? We see politicans beign unethical and corrupt every day–sure some of them get caught, but most of them find loops holes, tax dodges, etc. If these are societies rules, then they need to be changed. One way to change them is to rebell against them.

[QUOTE=drachillix]
Ah but the government they fund that protects your rights to freedom of religion, they are ok?

[/QUOTE]

Do they really protect our rights to freedom of religion though? If I truly practised my religion–as others have pointed out–I’d be thrown in jail…And did they protect the native american’s religion?

26

[QUOTE=Brain Wreck]
I know you have a compulsion to crap on people’s GQ threads with snarky unrelated comments, but if you’d just stick to crapping on the linguistics threads, you’d be sticking with something that you sort of understand, and it would be that much easier for the rest of us to avoid you. Thanks in advance.
[/QUOTE]
Brain Wreck, your comments are out of line for GQ.

Please leave the moderating to the mods. If you take exception to any post, please use the report post feature instead.

Thanks.

-xash
General Questions Moderator

27

[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann]
Do they really protect our rights to freedom of religion though?
[/quote]

Because, so far, you don’t have one. You have a couple of philosophies, which you are free to pursue limited only by the same laws that apply to us - you can choose to “live off the grid” and not pay your taxes. You might not like the results, but it’s your choice. You are allowed to protest, lobby, propose legislation and run for office on a platform supporting your theories, and you have the freedom to tell other people and organize them in peaceful protest.

Trust me, sweetie, you are free. There are countries that block this site so their people don’t read your words. There are countries where someone in a black coat would be knocking on your door to confiscate your bong and have you thrown into the deepest, darkest dungeon you could imagine, so you wouldn’t poison other with your thoughts. You’re free as a bird, my dear.

Yes, they have protected the recreationist Victorian-more laden debacle that passes for many N.A. religions today. Those that have chose to seek church status are allowed to pursue their faith. Some of them even have special dispensation to use some things that are illegal for the rest of us, but their use is only legal in a very specific religious setting. It’s just as illegal for a member of the Native American church to posess or use peyote outside of a sweat as it is for you and I.

What they did a coupla hundred years ago, I won’t comment on, other than to say I wouldn’t support it happening today.

28

PaulEdwardWagemann writes:

> And as far as playing by the rules–who’s rules? We see politicans beign
> unethical and corrupt every day–sure some of them get caught, but most of
> them find loops holes, tax dodges, etc. If these are societies rules, then they
> need to be changed. One way to change them is to rebell against them.

Then get into politics and change the laws. No, you can’t ignore laws because your religion disagrees with them. Sure you can start a religion that claims the present laws are wrong. (At the moment it’s a religion with one adherent. And there’s apparently no doctrine to this religion except "I want to ignore any laws that I disagree with.) But if you claim to a court “I can ignore any law I want to because my religion disagrees with it,” your argument will be ignored by the court and you will be convicted of violating the laws that you ignored. Use political means to change the laws you disagree with. You can begin by convincing us of the correctness of your political views. Start a thread in Great Debates. There are many people here who would be happy to tear your arguments to threads.

29

[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner]
PaulEdwardWagemann writes:

> And as far as playing by the rules–who’s rules? We see politicans beign
> unethical and corrupt every day–sure some of them get caught, but most of
> them find loops holes, tax dodges, etc. If these are societies rules, then they
> need to be changed. One way to change them is to rebell against them.

Then get into politics and change the laws. No, you can’t ignore laws because your religion disagrees with them. Sure you can start a religion that claims the present laws are wrong. (At the moment it’s a religion with one adherent. And there’s apparently no doctrine to this religion except "I want to ignore any laws that I disagree with.) But if you claim to a court “I can ignore any law I want to because my religion disagrees with it,” your argument will be ignored by the court and you will be convicted of violating the laws that you ignored. Use political means to change the laws you disagree with. You can begin by convincing us of the correctness of your political views. Start a thread in Great Debates. There are many people here who would be happy to tear your arguments to threads.
[/QUOTE]

Politics? Give me a break. i dotn want to tell anyone else how to live. I just want to practice my own religion.
And so what my religion only has one adherent? It’s my personal religion, not a freakin high school homecoming contest. Why does the popularity of a religion make it any more or less valid?

30

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Because, so far, you don’t have one. You have a couple of philosophies, which you are free to pursue limited only by the same laws that apply to us - you can choose to “live off the grid” and not pay your taxes. You might not like the results, but it’s your choice. You are allowed to protest, lobby, propose legislation and run for office on a platform supporting your theories, and you have the freedom to tell other people and organize them in peaceful protest.

Trust me, sweetie, you are free. There are countries that block this site so their people don’t read your words. There are countries where someone in a black coat would be knocking on your door to confiscate your bong and have you thrown into the deepest, darkest dungeon you could imagine, so you wouldn’t poison other with your thoughts. You’re free as a bird, my dear.

Yes, they have protected the recreationist Victorian-more laden debacle that passes for many N.A. religions today. Those that have chose to seek church status are allowed to pursue their faith. Some of them even have special dispensation to use some things that are illegal for the rest of us, but their use is only legal in a very specific religious setting. It’s just as illegal for a member of the Native American church to posess or use peyote outside of a sweat as it is for you and I.

What they did a coupla hundred years ago, I won’t comment on, other than to say I wouldn’t support it happening today.
[/QUOTE]

I dont live in those other countries. I live in this one. THis is where my friends and family are. So I dont see any use in tryng to change other countires or comparing my country to another country becasue that doesnt do me any good. In this country, if I try to practice my religion I will be arrested and thrown in jail. That is NOT freedom. No matter how you slice it, Adolf.

31

From what I’m hearing, your religion doesn’t believe in money or paying taxes. Fine, don’t have any income and you won’t owe taxes. How this will affect your standard of living, I couldn’t begin to speculate.

32

So…do you believe in Godwin?

33

[QUOTE=Antinor01]
From what I’m hearing, your religion doesn’t believe in money or paying taxes. Fine, don’t have any income and you won’t owe taxes. How this will affect your standard of living, I couldn’t begin to speculate.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. In fact, if you’re somehow able to survive mooching off your friends, you’ll be actually ahead of the rest of us. See when you earn money, the taxes you pay on that income (in some small percentage) go towards social services and common societal benefits. For example, even though you don’t pay taxes (since you don’t earn or spend any money) you’re still allowed to walk on the sidewalk that everyone elses taxes paid for. And when those sidewalks are repaired and renewed thanks to the rest of us, you’re still allowed to walk on them. You’re probably even able to ride the free downtown electric shuttle or even get a free meal at a local shelter. No need to prove that you’ve paid taxes for that.

So forget about all this religion stuff. The system is set up pretty well for a handful of people to leech off everyone else. I’m relatively OK with that. And at the same time, you can feel like you’re putting one over on The Man.

34

[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann]
In this country, if I try to practice my religion I will be arrested and thrown in jail. That is NOT freedom. No matter how you slice it, Adolf.
[/QUOTE]

This is getting silly.

Of course you have the right to “practice your religion”. What you don’t have is the right to commit crimes just because “your religion” says you can. We don’t have a law against practicing PaulEdwardWagemannism, we have a law against rape, a law against cannibalism, a law against jaywalking, a law against selling crack cocaine, a law against not paying your taxes.

Your claim that your religion exempts you from laws you disagree with is specious. No religion in the US is allowed to violate the laws they disagree with. You are free to violate the laws you disagree with and the rest of us are free to lock you up for marrying 12 year old girls.

Otherwise, anyone could make up a fake religion and literally get away with murder. See how that works?

35

[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann]
But what if society changes, what if society doesnt keep ITS promises? Does that make your promise null and void? So if money is just broken promises, then how can it really exist?
[/QUOTE]

This is why currencies are backed by the federal government not independent businesses. It takes something a little more epic than a few broken promises to derail our entire economic system. There are also a multitude of checks and balances to help soften the blows of any broken promises that might occur like insurance, bankruptcy liquidation of assets to pay off creditors, etc.

Also money is just a simplified unit of trade, its alot easier to sell the skins from the bears you hunted for $X each and then take your money to the general store to figure out what your bear skin sales will get you. In theory you could cart your bear skins around offering to trade them for food, tools, ammo, whatever, but people might not want what you have to trade. Currency allows a common tool for facilitating any trade.

From the sounds of it, you would be pretty much fine of you wanted to move off to the middle of Montana somewhere buy a piece of land and live off of what you can harvest on it. You might end up paying a few taxes here and there but it will be a fairly moneyless existence.

36

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
This is getting silly.

Of course you have the right to “practice your religion”. What you don’t have is the right to commit crimes just because “your religion” says you can. We don’t have a law against practicing PaulEdwardWagemannism, we have a law against rape, a law against cannibalism, a law against jaywalking, a law against selling crack cocaine, a law against not paying your taxes.

Your claim that your religion exempts you from laws you disagree with is specious. No religion in the US is allowed to violate the laws they disagree with. You are free to violate the laws you disagree with and the rest of us are free to lock you up for marrying 12 year old girls.

Otherwise, anyone could make up a fake religion and literally get away with murder. See how that works?
[/QUOTE]

PaulEdwardWagemannism doesnt condone rape or cannibalims. My basic tenet is ‘Dont screw anyone over and dont let anyone screw me over.’ And my only other tenet is ‘If someone is committing a crime against humanity, do what you can to stop them’. I dont think jay walking is a crime against humanity.

I have no problem contributing toward things that will help society. But the majority of our taxes go to the military-industrial complex, and anohter fair chunk goes toward corruption, croonyism and politicans paychecks. Dont you think it is ridiculas to make someone pay into something they are religiously against? DO you think it is right that I should work hard 40 hours a week just so 20% of my earning can go toward taxes that pay for corruption and croonyism? Why would anyone in their right mind do that? Unless they were a slave and forced to?

37

[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann]
Dont you think it is ridiculas to make someone pay into something they are **religiously **against?
[/QUOTE]

(bolding mine)

You keepa using that word. I do not-a think eet means what you think eet means.

38

[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann]
PaulEdwardWagemannism doesnt condone rape or cannibalims. My basic tenet is ‘Dont screw anyone over and dont let anyone screw me over.’ And my only other tenet is ‘If someone is committing a crime against humanity, do what you can to stop them’. I dont think jay walking is a crime against humanity.
[/quote]

Um, what?

Not at all. You’re benefiting from the system supported by tax money constantly, in countless ways that you probably never even think about. Why should you be allowed to conveniently invent a “religion” that excuses you from contributing but permits you to enjoy the benefits of our society? If you really think our government and society are so immoral that you cannot contribute to them, you really ought to consider leaving. I’m not fond of the “love it or leave it” argument, but in this case, since you obviously consider the system to be so broken that it can’t be fixed through political participation, isn’t that what you’re obligated to do? Slothfully accepting the benefits of the system without paying into it is pretty tough to defend as a moral stance.

Furthermore, I think it’s even less problematic to make someone pay into something they’re opposed to out of non-religious principles, which would be the case in your situation. Nothing about what you’ve said here relates to actual religious beliefs. The rest of us are certainly not obligated to respect a religion that doesn’t actually exist.

I think that you haven’t made a terribly compelling argument yet. So, yes, I think it’s right that some portion of your income be set aside for the workings of the government and the good of society.

Because the rest of us have the moral sense that you apparently lack.

39

[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann]
Dont you think it is ridiculas to make someone pay into something they are religiously against? DO you think it is right that I should work hard 40 hours a week just so 20% of my earning can go toward taxes that pay for corruption and croonyism? Why would anyone in their right mind do that? Unless they were a slave and forced to?
[/QUOTE]

But no body is making you do any of that. I mean, sure, if you want to eat at McDonald’s and buy clothes at Wal-Mart, you need money, and if you make or spend money, you have to pay taxes, but it’s your choice. Since you don’t believe in money, you are perfectly free to live without it. It’s not that hard, either. There is plenty of free food in our society (at shelters and soup kitchens, in dumpsters, lots of other places if you know where to look and who to ask), a fair amount of free shelter, and plenty of land where you can hide out, build your own shelter, and live off what you can grow, find, or kill.

If you’re willing to play society’s game just temporarily, you can buy the land and supplies you need to live self-sufficently fairly easily and cheaply, be totally legit and law-abiding, and even have a decent standard of living (if you have or develop the right skills).

There are plenty of people and even communities in this country who live without money and without paying taxes. Nothing and no one is stopping you from joining them. If you altruistically want to benefit society as well, you can write, volunteer, or give blood. You can even work and earn below a certain amount, and not have to pay income tax at all (though you still have to pay the sales tax if you want to buy a hamburger at McDonald’s.)

40

Maybe he’ll make more sense if we say it again, but in a funny accent?

Nope. No better. :rolleyes: