# How do I punctuate this possessive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 19, 2024, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014 "2024-03-19T02:35:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/1 "2024-03-19T02:35:07Z")
In a thread over in CS about Michael Jackson videos, I wanted to make “Beat It” possessive. Since titles are typically in double quotes, would it be “Beat It”’s? That looks very wrong. Putting the apostrophe within the quotes also seems wrong since it’s not actually part of the title. So what’s correct? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/2 "2024-03-19T03:06:07Z")
The usual solution is to italicize the title. [Apparently some think it should be done the way that looks wrong](https://www.markalleneditorial.com/post/possessive-of-a-title-in-quotes-just-don-t). I’d reword it. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/3 "2024-03-19T03:17:16Z")
I did. > [@Me in the other thread](#): > > If I added a new category of “Dancing” to the OP, I’d have to give the edge to Thriller as its routines are longer and more complicated than those of “Beat It”. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/4 "2024-03-19T09:38:58Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > In a thread over in CS about Michael Jackson videos, I wanted to make “Beat It” possessive. Since titles are typically in double quotes, would it be “Beat It”’s? That looks very wrong. Putting the apostrophe within the quotes also seems wrong since it’s not actually part of the title. > > So what’s correct? Couldn’t you just do it the same way you do with anything that has a two-part name? - South Dakota’s governor - Patrick Stewart’s bald head - Beat It’s unparalleled excellence ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/5 "2024-03-19T09:52:13Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > - South Dakota’s governor > - Patrick Stewart’s bald head > - Beat It’s unparalleled excellence I’m not a native speaker, but I think these are all correct. It would, AIUI, even be correct for terms with postpositive adjectives (“the attorney general’s”), even though those form the plural by attaching the -s to the noun (“attorneys general”). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/6 "2024-03-19T10:42:51Z")
None of those two-part names have quotation marks around them. That’s the complication here. Anyways, the only guide I’ve found that addresses it suggest the following: “Beat It” 's lyrics are still an improvement. That’s a thin space, which I typed by using ` ` . But a regular space will do in a pinch, like I did in the previous sentence before the period. But, basically, a thin space is how you handle punctuation marks that run together. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/7 "2024-03-19T11:15:11Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > - South Dakota’s governor > - Patrick Stewart’s bald head > - Beat It’s unparalleled excellence I would print the title in italics, but the apostophe s in regular font: Beat It’s unparalled excellence But I am no expert…just going by what looks right to me. Titles are usually italicized.And the italicization helps to group both words together as one unit, so the possessive s applies to the whole unit, not just the last word. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/8 "2024-03-19T11:25:40Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Titles are usually italicized. Titles of short works, including songs, are typically in quotation marks. Titles of longer works are italicized. One cite: > **[When to Use Quotation Marks for Titles](https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks-in-titles/)** > > Do you know when to use quotation marks for titles? Knowing whether to use italics or quotation marks for titles is one of… ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/9 "2024-03-19T12:48:03Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > > > - South Dakota’s governor > > - Patrick Stewart’s bald head > > - Beat It’s unparalleled excellence > > I would print the title in italics, but the apostophe s in regular font: > Beat It’s unparalled excellence > > But I am no expert…just going by what looks right to me. > Titles are usually italicized.And the italicization helps to group both words together as one unit, so the possessive s applies to the whole unit, not just the last word… Then what would you do if you were hand writing? I can’t write in italics. @Machine_Elf But if I just use Beat It’s, it looks as though I either don’t know the actual title of the song or I don’t know the proper usage of it’s/its. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/10 "2024-03-19T13:15:09Z")
You reword and avoid the issue altogether. The only other solutions either impact clarity, force you to mess with somebody else’s title, or both. These are cardinal sins. The AP Stylebook agrees with me, but I think this link will not work without a subscription of some kind. [apstylebook.com/ask\_the\_editors/26410](http://apstylebook.com/ask_the_editors/26410) ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/11 "2024-03-19T13:16:33Z")
The link did not work for me. I agree with those who suggested rewording. Like the OP already did. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/12 "2024-03-19T13:24:44Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Then what would you do if you were hand writing? I can’t write in italics. You underline, when handwriting or using an old-fashioned typewriter that doesn’t do italics. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/13 "2024-03-20T13:29:50Z")
I agree with **Johnny\_Bravo**. My mother was a journalist and writer for many years and she would call it “writing yourself into a corner.” When a story, sentence, or word construction seemed awkward or caused significant punctuation or clarity issues, she said she would start from scratch and find a way to avoid the problem completely. Her analogy was someone trying to make a totally broken-down house beautiful with a few boards and a coat of paint. Better to tear it down and start over. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/14 "2024-03-20T14:16:01Z")
It surprises me that Chicago and AP style both strictly forbid making a possessive out of a title that is in quotation marks. From time to time, you might need to do so. Sometimes you cannot properly rework the passage (for instance, you might be citing someone else’s words verbatim). I’ve seen the possessive placed inside the quotes – **“Beat It’s” routines** – and (where a rewrite would be even more ungainly) I believe this imperfect solution needs to be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/15 "2024-03-20T14:16:27Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I would print the title in italics, but the apostophe s in regular font: > _Beat It_’s unparalled excellence And, if you are printing it, don’t forget the italic correction 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/16 "2024-03-20T14:45:15Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > From time to time, The dirty secret of all style guides is that **everything** can be tolerated from time to time, if there’s good reason. But I don’t think this is it. > [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > for instance, you might be citing someone else’s words verbatim “What I love about [the video’s] routines are the way they look,” said Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/17 "2024-03-20T17:09:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > > [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > > > verbatim > > “What I love about [the video’s] routines are the way they look,” said Cecil. Is that being presented as a serious work-around? Just no. That’s ugly and doesn’t preserve the quote. Set it off typographically in italics as most have said. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/18 "2024-03-21T01:04:30Z")
It’s a fact of continuing amazement to me that after more than 50 years of seriously studying English style with regards to writing properly, issues should still periodically arise that I have never dealt with and have no answer to. I’m not sure why. English is fantastically complicated and its hundreds of millions of users throw off hundreds of billions of sentences daily. Even an AI couldn’t keep pace. I also find myself less and less interested in worrying about what is proper. Especially here. Although threads and posts regularly appear from admirably literate purveyors of language, this board overall has a casual structure. Whenever I put a title into italics I wonder why I take the bother. Whenever I question whether italics or quotes are more “proper” I wonder who I am doing it for. Style guides may sit heavily on those who work for owners who mandate their use, they are not incumbent on any outsiders. Moreover, they do not, as people here have noted, contain writ. They merely lay down requirements for a small set of users. Good writers can assemble their own set of styles, drawn from a dozen guides or self-determined. How could anyone deny them, other than from a false [pedanticism](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/349326/are-pedantry-and-pedanticism-synonyms)? Perhaps the best justification I can give for writing “properly” here at all times is an analogy to driving. I use my turn signals even when no one is there to see them because I want to make this such an automatic habit that I never forgo using them when they are necessary. But year by year I find that I just don’t care if I write Michael Jackson’s Thriller in a post and leave the title utterly bare. Michael Jackson’s Thriller’s admirers will just have to accept it as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/19 "2024-03-21T11:56:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I also find myself less and less interested in worrying about what is proper. Especially here. Although threads and posts regularly appear from admirably literate purveyors of language, this board overall has a casual structure. Whenever I put a title into italics I wonder why I take the bother. Whenever I question whether italics or quotes are more “proper” I wonder who I am doing it for. That mostly makes sense, but when everyone knows and follows the same conventions, it aids comprehension. For example… > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Michael Jackson’s Thriller’s admirers will just have to accept it as it is. Do you mean “Thriller” the song or _Thriller_ the album? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014/20 "2024-03-21T12:17:06Z")
Anybody can break rules, but most people can only break rules in an _artful manner_ after mastering them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-i-punctuate-this-possessive/999014.md?page=2)