# How do Indian (as in the country) names work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165 "2017-05-08T22:56:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/41 "2017-09-13T18:24:58Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Vicky for Waqar or Waqas? Most often Vicky \< Vikram (or Bicky \< Bikram). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/42 "2017-09-14T03:49:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Right, anything ending in -son is an obvious English equivalent. (One obvious problem with patronymic naming is that there’s obviously a conundrum in terms of how to name, uh, illegitimate children)… In Iceland the child would simply be given a matronym. I think in Russia (where people have both patronyms & family names) if paternity was undeclared the child would be given it’s mother’s family name _and her patronym_ instead of having a matronym, but that’s based on **Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears**. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/43 "2017-09-16T22:30:11Z")
In the Qur’an, Jesus goes by his matronym in Arabic: ‘Isa ibn Maryam. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/44 "2017-09-16T22:45:25Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > In the Qur’an, Jesus goes by his matronym in Arabic: ‘Isa ibn Maryam. Do you know why that is? Surely they don’t accept the concept of the virgin birth of Jesus, so why wouldn’t he just be Isa ibn Youssef? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/45 "2017-09-16T23:21:16Z")
I have lots of Indian students, and many of them four or more names. Some of them will have NLN included in their name, such as Subhash Ghandhi Patel NLN. It took me years to figure out what that meant, when one day I was looking at immigration forms. They will often cram all their names into the “first name” slot on the form, and the computer fills in NLN (“no last name”) in the last name slot. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/46 "2017-09-16T23:36:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you know why that is? Surely they don’t accept the concept of the virgin birth of Jesus, so why wouldn’t he just be Isa ibn Youssef? I don’t know a whole lot about Islam, but a Muslim friend once told me that Muslims _do_ accept the virgin birth and a quick Google backs this up. Here’s [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus#Quran) on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/47 "2017-09-17T00:18:53Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I don’t know a whole lot about Islam, but a Muslim friend once told me that Muslims _do_ accept the virgin birth and a quick Google backs this up. Here’s [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus#Quran) on the subject. I’m certainly no expert on Islam, but I understand that Abraham, Moses, Jesus and other Biblical figures are considered prophets of god in Islam. So perhaps having a miracle such as virgin birth associated with Jesus is just fine. There are actual Muslims on this board who certainly could give a statement much more reliable than my partial memory. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/48 "2017-09-18T15:44:29Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Some groups in Southern india (like my ethnic group) don’t traditionally have the concept of surnames. People have a given name, a patronymic (= given name of your father), and “clan” or “village” name that indicates your ancestral village, and the order goes “village name, patronymic, given name”. Among Marathi Hindus, the naming convention is similar but also happens to fit in with western conventions. Sons get a given name, the father’s first name as a middle name, and an often-but-not-exclusively geographic surname. A name that ends in -kar denotes a relationship with a town of village in Marathi (and I think in Gujarati too). So [Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._R._Ambedkar) is the son of Ramji and his family is from the village of Ambadawe In fact, his father apparently changed Bhimrao’s surname (but not his own) from Sakpal though they didn’t live in Ambadawe by the time he was born. This perhaps gives you some idea of how casual Indians are about these things. He’s also a good example of another Indian convention - using only the first and middle initial when rendering names (particularly of professionals and political figures). In Indian sources, Gandhi is usually “M. K. Gandhi” when his honorifics aren’t used. The place-name surnames can also be confusing because the whole place name is rarely used. There are villages called Ambadawe and Ambavade in Maharashtra, and people named Ambedkar could originally be from either. > [@AK84](#): > > Technically Sri Lankan, but seriously a dude called _Warnakulasuriya Patabendige Ushantha Joseph Chaminda Vaas_ needs to shorten his name Obligatory _Goodness Gracious Me_ [reference](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7sr3t). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/49 "2017-09-18T16:36:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :dubious: > You sure? > Names are very ethnic. Now there is some overlap, and people do give names from other groups, but names are a very good indicator. > Ajit Agarkar is going to be Marhati. > Saddagoppan Ramesh is going to be Tamil. Just like someone might be called Juan or John, or Miguel or Michael, or Enrique or Ricky, depending on if they’re talking to someone in English or Spanish. It’s the same name, just in a different form. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/50 "2017-09-18T17:02:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s not the consonants that are the problem. It’s the syllables. In any case I’m not sure about Malayalam, but Tamil has a lot fewer consonants than North Indian languages. Huh? No way! Tamil has retroflex consonants, which no Indo European language has. ETA: Ninja’d by Hector St. Clare. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/51 "2017-09-18T17:05:28Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Just like someone might be called Juan or John, or Miguel or Michael, or Enrique or Ricky, depending on if they’re talking to someone in English or Spanish. It’s the same name, just in a different form. Yes, but Juan and John and Miguel and Michael are simply regional variations on the same names. There is no English analogue for all but a handful of Indian names. My name is Neil, because my parents wanted a name that works in Hindi and in English, but that is pure happenstance. There’s no relationship between the Gaelic \*Niall \*and the Hindi _Neel_. That said, a lot of non-resident Indians adopt western names, like [Bruce, Nick, Mike, Sunny, Sam and Gary Patel](http://www.aahoa.com/about-aahoa/board-of-directors). 😃 Or Bobby Jindal. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/52 "2017-09-19T11:01:40Z")
I just got back from two weeks in India, and everyone I met there has very smoothly worked a variant of, “please call me _name_,” into their standard introduction, particularly in business settings. There are so many naming conventions around the world, that I’m perfectly content to go with the name they ask me to call them and not really think any deeper than that. On the other hand, I do find cultural differences like this interesting, so if I get to know someone, I could see asking them more detail about their name. We went to a wedding in Chennai a few years back and the bride’s father, when introducing himself, said, “just call me VS.” I assumed that he was taking it easy on us linguistically-challenged Americans, but I heard lots of his family call him that as well, so it appears that sort of “nickname” isn’t unusual. The other naming convention I found fascinating was when we were visiting one of my wife’s co-workers, who had recently given birth. We asked about the girl’s name, and were told that she didn’t have one; she would get one at her naming ceremony when she turned 2 years old. Can you imagine the bureaucratic hell you would unleash in the US trying to get your child medical attention, etc., if they didn’t have a name for the first two years of their life? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/53 "2017-09-19T11:38:27Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > Can you imagine the bureaucratic hell you would unleash in the US trying to get your child medical attention, etc., if they didn’t have a name for the first two years of their life? India is rightly known for its own brand of bureaucratic hell. But medical services still run largely on cash. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/54 "2017-09-19T12:16:17Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Technically Sri Lankan, but seriously a dude called _Warnakulasuriya Patabendige Ushantha Joseph Chaminda Vaas_ needs to shorten his name Heh. Long ago I used to process graduate school applications from international students. Every time one popped up with a 16-letter-long South Asian surname, I knew without checking they were from Sri Lanka. (The other group with form-field-breakingly long names were the Thai applicants.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/55 "2017-09-20T01:16:48Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Huh? No way! Tamil has retroflex consonants, which no Indo European language has. > > ETA: Ninja’d by Hector St. Clare. Take out that comma to make the sentence true. Tamil has retroflex consonants which no Indo-European language has. “That” would work better than “which” in this example. Tamil has the retroflex l ள, but then Indo-European Marathi also has it: ळ - an areal effect, from Marathi bordering on Dravidian-speaking areas like Kannada, Tulu, Telugu, and Malayalam, among others. Which must be how Pashto also picked up retroflex consonants. Because there’s no other route for them to have gotten into Pashto when no other Iranic languages have them. It seems that proto-Dravidian in the first place, having migrated from Central Asia/Afghanistan/Iran to India, caught the retroflex from the autochthonous languages of India, the Munda languages. The Tamil retroflex approximant ழ is also shared by Malayalam; Old Kannada used to have it, but not any more. The same sound occurs as an allophone of /r/ in some American English dialects (but not mine)—but being an allophone it never rises to the dignity of a phoneme in English, only South Dravidian. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2017, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165/56 "2017-09-20T02:17:11Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Huh? No way! Tamil has retroflex consonants, which no Indo European language has. > > ETA: Ninja’d by Hector St. Clare. As Johanna said, there are retroflex consonants in Tamil that aren’t in other languages. But other Indian languages certainly have retroflex consonants. And there are other Indian languages with many more total consonants than Tamil has. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-indian-as-in-the-country-names-work/786165.md?page=2)