# How do Jews regard Christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617 "2016-01-19T20:55:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/101 "2016-01-28T02:57:57Z")
Jayhawker Soule: > [@](#): > > I Samuel is not part of the Torah. I assumed that by “Torah” you were referring to the entirety of the Jewish scriptures rather than narrowly to the five books of Moses. That said, the word used for the witch in Samuel is also used in the Torah itself, so the belief that people like her could contact spirits of those who had died is in there, even if a concrete example of it happening isn’t illustrated there. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/102 "2016-01-28T03:43:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought it was. > [Link.](http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/samuel.html) It most certainly is not. The Torah is the first five books of the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/103 "2016-01-28T06:31:54Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Jayhawker Soule: > > I assumed that by “Torah” you were referring to the entirety of the Jewish scriptures rather than narrowly to the five books of Moses. Who on earth uses Torah in that sense (ie the entirety of the Jewish scriptures)? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/104 "2016-01-28T06:50:24Z")
I’m an atheist but I always remember that Jesus was a devout Jew and if he ever did return with any power he would probably deliver all Christians to condign and eternal punishment for the way they had persecuted and slaughtered his people. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/105 "2016-01-28T08:25:58Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Who on earth uses Torah in that sense (ie the entirety of the Jewish scriptures)? Hillel the Elder, for one: > [@](#): > > [A certain non-Jewish “wise-guy” came to scoff at the Torah, first to the home of Shammai, then to the home of Hillel. He said, “Teach me the Torah while I am standing on one foot.” Shammai, sensing his true intention, had him thrown out forthwith. (From this story, probably mostly, Shammai has received the bad “rep” of being a short-tempered, person who “did not suffer fools” lightly. However, this is certainly not the case, since it is Shammai himself who teaches “Receive everyone with a smiling face.” > > When the individual came to the home of Hillel with the same request, Hillel responded. “No problem! The main idea of the Torah is ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Everything else is commentary. Now, if you’re really interested, go and study the commentary.” So impressed with Hillel’s response, according to Jewish Tradition, was the visitor, that he took Hillel up on his instructions, began to study the Torah seriously, and became a Jew.]([Hillel - Orthodox Union](https://www.ou.org/judaism-101/bios/leaders-in-the-talmudic-period/hillel/)) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/106 "2016-01-28T08:33:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Hillel the Elder, for one: I bow to Hillel. And going by the OED definition there is certainly warrant for it: > [@](#): > > The teaching or instruction, and judicial decisions, given by the ancient Hebrew priests as a revelation of the divine will; the Mosaic or Jewish law; hence, a name for the five books of the law, the Pentateuch. I still say though that using it in the broad sense would lead to misinterpretation by most of your audience. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/107 "2016-01-28T09:04:54Z")
Bear in mind that the Hebrew word “Torah” simply means a doctrine or body or knowledge. For instance, the term “Quantum Theory” is translated as “Torat HaQuantim”. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/108 "2016-01-28T09:16:44Z")
I wonder if they even notice that Catholics don’t (or aren’t supposed to) proselytize to them. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/109 "2016-01-28T13:07:25Z")
aldiboronti: > [@](#): > > Who on earth uses Torah in that sense (ie the entirety of the Jewish scriptures)? Plenty of people. Specifically, when the context is whether a certain element of Jewish belief or practice is historically Jewish or has been borrowed/adapted from some outside source, there’s no reason to distinguish the first five books from the rest of the scriptures (at least, the ones universally acknowledged as having an early origin, I can see making a distinction that excludes Daniel or Esther), as all of those books represent ancient Jewish lore. Something sourced in Samuel is no more likely to have been borrowed from the Zoroastrians than something sourced in Leviticus. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/110 "2016-01-28T13:15:32Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > I wonder if they even notice that Catholics don’t (or aren’t supposed to) proselytize to them. That’s not the Catholic position at all. Not even the newer, \*much \*better Catholic position. Catholics are mandated to proselytize to everyone - even to the Jews. They’re just expected to be a little more humble when they come knocking on our doors. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/111 "2016-01-28T18:48:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Bear in mind that the Hebrew word “Torah” simply means a doctrine or body or knowledge. For instance, the term “Quantum Theory” is translated as “Torat HaQuantim”. And I have a book called “The Barbecue Bible,” but if I’m talking about religion and say something is in the Bible, I expect my audience to know I don’t mean that one. Or at the very least, to ask for clarification before they assume that I do. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/112 "2016-01-28T18:59:29Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Plenty of people. Specifically, when the context is whether a certain element of Jewish belief or practice is historically Jewish or has been borrowed/adapted from some outside source, there’s no reason to distinguish the first five books from the rest of the scriptures (at least, the ones universally acknowledged as having an early origin, I can see making a distinction that excludes Daniel or Esther), as all of those books represent ancient Jewish lore. Something sourced in Samuel is no more likely to have been borrowed from the Zoroastrians than something sourced in Leviticus. While you are of course entitled to your opinion, I predict that you will continue to misunderstand people, the way you did here, if you insist on your own definition. When capitalized and used in a scriptural context without further qualification, “Torah” has a specific meaning, and it is not “everything but Esther and Daniel.” ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/113 "2016-01-28T19:48:49Z")
TonySinclair: > [@](#): > > While you are of course entitled to your opinion, I predict that you will continue to misunderstand people, the way you did here, if you insist on your own definition. When capitalized and used in a scriptural context without further qualification, “Torah” has a specific meaning, and it is not “everything but Esther and Daniel.” So, you think when Jews speak of “learning Torah” they’re only referring to studying the Five Books of Moses? Certainly, Torah can mean only those books, but it is hardly only me who use the term in the broader sense of all Jewish religious scripture. (And of course, Daniel and Esther are included, in that sense, but my point was that the references to the afterlife in Samuel are in the parts of Jewish scripture that, like the five books of Moses, is universally acknowledged as older than Zoroastrianism is known to be, so there was no reason for me to have assumed the narrower definition.) ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/114 "2016-01-28T22:07:01Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > So, you think when Jews speak of “learning Torah” they’re only referring to studying the Five Books of Moses? I think that if “learning Torah” is understood by common consent and usage within a group to include more than the Torah, then everybody’s happy. But if you are having a serious discussion with someone you don’t know, and he uses the term “Torah,” and there is any possibility that he means only the Pentateuch, then you should ask him what he means before you make any assertions. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/115 "2016-01-28T22:41:16Z")
Sheesh, you make it sound like I insulted the guy. He clarified, I responded, and it’s over. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/116 "2016-01-28T22:54:07Z")
Frankly, I think of the “Torah” as the Pentatuech, the scroll that’s stored in the Ark on the beemah. The kind I read from during my Bar Mitzvah and was sometimes asked to hold during Sabbat Services. But when one thinks of “learning Torah”, I’d toss in the remainder of the Bible (what’s often called the Old Testament) and the Talmud. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/117 "2016-01-28T23:03:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > That’s not the Catholic position at all. Not even the newer, \*much \*better Catholic position. > > Catholics are mandated to proselytize to everyone - even to the Jews. They’re just expected to be a little more humble when they come knocking on our doors. You mean despite statements like this by Benedict XVI? > **[Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, pope says](https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says)** > > After excerpts from the second volume of the pope’s book on Jesus made the rounds last week, featuring his rejection of the idea that “the Jews” killed Christ, the full text adds another point with important implications for Christian/Jewish... This one’s by Francis: > **[RNS | Covering the world of religion](https://religionnews.com/2015/12/10/vatican-catholic-jews-jewish-anti-semitism/)** > > RNS is an independent, nonprofit, and award-winning source of global news on religion, spirituality, and culture. Founded in 1934, RNS seeks to inform readers with objective reporting and insightful commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/118 "2016-01-28T23:36:53Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Sheesh, you make it sound like I insulted the guy. Damn right. You Torah new one. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/119 "2016-01-29T00:18:21Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > You mean despite statements like this by Benedict XVI? > > [Church should not pursue conversion of Jews, pope says | National Catholic Reporter](http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says) > > This one’s by Francis: > > [http://www.religionnews.com/2015/12/10/vatican-catholic-jews-jewish-anti-semitism/](http://www.religionnews.com/2015/12/10/vatican-catholic-jews-jewish-anti-semitism/) Well, I didn’t read those articles but I did read the [actual statement by Francis](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html) when it came out last month. You should, too. It’s good and, like I said, a much better position than in the past. But make no mistake - while the church has backed away from institutional conversion of Jews it still mandates that all Catholics are called to individually proselytize to all Jews. Just in a humble manner. > [@Francis](#): > > While there is a principled rejection of an institutional Jewish mission, Christians are nonetheless called to bear witness to their faith in Jesus Christ also to Jews, although they should do so in a humble and sensitive manner, acknowledging that Jews are bearers of God’s Word, and particularly in view of the great tragedy of the Shoah. It’s good. I like it. But when you say that Catholics flatly “don’t proselytize” to Jews, you’re dead wrong, even by the most current standards of the church. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617/120 "2016-01-29T00:22:04Z")
I have lived through four popes so far, besides the current, and it has always been, do not try to convert Jews to Christianity. I suppose you know something I don’t. How about a documented instance of Christians proselytizing to Jews? If they’re non-Catholics, I might believe you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-jews-regard-christians/743617.md?page=7)