# How do libertarians deal with inelastic demand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662 "2018-04-02T19:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/21 "2018-04-09T13:36:18Z")
I once knew an extreme libertarian. For him, only the police and military were the only legitimate government roles. Even streets should be privately built and tolled. I regret that I never asked him about externalities. Cap and trade is one example, but an even better one is charging for the right to pollute the air we breathe and the water we drink. Imagine we abolished the FDA. All drugs are at your own risk and you cannot trust anyone. Of course, some manufacturers might gain a reputation as trustworthy and you would stick to them. Or try. How do libertarians feel about copyright and trademark laws? I guess they like them since they love private property and they are that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/22 "2018-04-09T13:43:41Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The demand for water is very changeable _when the supply of water is in glut._ Prices don’t generally double when you have a glut, so I don’t think your point is particularly well-taken. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/23 "2018-04-09T15:19:02Z")
Forget Libertaria; where can I go in the real world to get free water? Is there a government anywhere that will not charge me even for the water I need to live, and that will not shut off my water service if I don’t pay? > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Why would things be any different in Libertaria without a pesky government to either handle those kinds of things themselves or to make reasonable restrictions to allow the population to actually keep their freedoms after all? Debating’s easy when one stacks the deck. It wasn’t private companies that put lead in the water in [Flint](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis), Michigan and [Washington](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_contamination_in_Washington,_D.C._drinking_water) DC, it was those pesky governments. Indeed, the DC crisis brought to light misreporting by water agencies around the country, and “scientifically indefensible” claims by the CDC. As for health care freedoms, suppose the single payer decides not to cover gender reassignment? Or requires gay people to go through conversion therapy as a precondition to obtaining care? Or denies coverage altogether to smokers or drinkers? Or immigrants? Or African-Americans? One can just as easily postulate that those pesky governments will not always be reasonable, and the question becomes, what do the people affected do when there is no alternative? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/24 "2018-04-09T20:03:39Z")
Then I suppose they can defy the law. Governments are rarely able to impose their will totally and absolutely. But just taking away government programs takes away options, and thus liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/25 "2018-04-09T20:26:47Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > As for health care freedoms, suppose the single payer decides not to cover gender reassignment? Or requires gay people to go through conversion therapy as a precondition to obtaining care? Or denies coverage altogether to smokers or drinkers? Or immigrants? Or African-Americans? One can just as easily postulate that those pesky governments will not always be reasonable, and the question becomes, what do the people affected do when there is no alternative? People who want single payer health care seem to believe that the people holding the clipboards and rationing medicine have exactly the same values they do, and never consider what might happen if they don’t. And your example is on point - people who need gender assignment surgery in Canada often pay through their own pocket to have it done in the States, because their own Province either disallows it completely or rations it so heavily that the waiting lists can be years long. Of course, if the States also had the same single payer coverage, where can you go? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/26 "2018-04-09T20:51:55Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > People who want single payer health care seem to believe that the people holding the clipboards and rationing medicine have exactly the same values they do, and never consider what might happen if they don’t. > > And your example is on point - people who need gender assignment surgery in Canada often pay through their own pocket to have it done in the States, because their own Province either disallows it completely or rations it so heavily that the waiting lists can be years long. > > Of course, if the States also had the same single payer coverage, where can you go? Thats why many places have a public system that covers everyone but also the option to pay privately for better coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/27 "2018-04-09T21:15:30Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > As for health care freedoms, suppose the single payer decides not to cover gender reassignment? Or requires gay people to go through conversion therapy as a precondition to obtaining care? Or denies coverage altogether to smokers or drinkers? Or immigrants? Or African-Americans? One can just as easily postulate that those pesky governments will not always be reasonable, and the question becomes, what do the people affected do when there is no alternative? In theory the government has to answer to the people. If the people want something covered politicians can add it to their platform as something they will see done. Not to mention we have plenty of examples of single payer systems (See: most OECD nations) and these fears don’t seem to be a reality. If it is private companies providing care the people have far less ability to control what is or isn’t on offer. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/28 "2018-04-09T22:47:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Thats why many places have a public system that covers everyone but also the option to pay privately for better coverage. And the argument you’ll get back (and which was successfully used in Canada) is that once you have a public system and a private system, all the best doctors will go to the private system and the rich people will get great care, and the rest of the public will get the dregs. That happens to be the same argument opponents of school choice use. If you allow choice, the rich will sort themselves out into better schools, leaving the poor kids and the worst teachers behind. So I have no faith that a public/private combination system available to everyone will be stable. But if it is, it’s certainly preferable to single payer. Canada’s health care system is now ranked 30th in the world, and I can tell you as someone who is getting older and has had to interact with the system more and more, that reputation is well deserved. On the other hand, the two-tier systems like Britain’s NHS are also not doing very well. The most successful systems (such as Singapore’s) have a common characteristic in that they try to make everyone have skin in the game in terms of health care costs. I think a system of single payer catastrophic coverage with a means-tested deductible and a completely private health system with gap insurance for other treatments would fix a lot of these problems. That’s essentially what dentistry is in Canada, and it seems to be one of the healthiest parts of our health care system, and has managed to avoid the cost explosions we’re seeing in the rest of the health care industry. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/29 "2018-04-10T01:37:43Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And the argument you’ll get back (and which was successfully used in Canada) is that once you have a public system and a private system, all the best doctors will go to the private system and the rich people will get great care, and the rest of the public will get the dregs. > > That happens to be the same argument opponents of school choice use. If you allow choice, the rich will sort themselves out into better schools, leaving the poor kids and the worst teachers behind. > > So I have no faith that a public/private combination system available to everyone will be stable. But if it is, it’s certainly preferable to single payer. Canada’s health care system is now ranked 30th in the world, and I can tell you as someone who is getting older and has had to interact with the system more and more, that reputation is well deserved. > > On the other hand, the two-tier systems like Britain’s NHS are also not doing very well. The most successful systems (such as Singapore’s) have a common characteristic in that they try to make everyone have skin in the game in terms of health care costs. > > I think a system of single payer catastrophic coverage with a means-tested deductible and a completely private health system with gap insurance for other treatments would fix a lot of these problems. That’s essentially what dentistry is in Canada, and it seems to be one of the healthiest parts of our health care system, and has managed to avoid the cost explosions we’re seeing in the rest of the health care industry. Lots of different nations have different health care systems. I don’t know which is best personally, nor do I know how to remove the negatives while maximizing the positives. [William Hsiao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hsiao) has probably written a lot of good info about how to build the best health system possible, he helps design a lot of health care systems. Also in the US we have medicare for the elderly, that is a two tier system and lots of people are content with the public medicare system. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/30 "2018-04-14T01:17:22Z")
No monopoly has persisted without government privilege. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/31 "2018-04-14T01:20:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I ask those in the thread who call themselves libertarians to take a stand on “Cap and Trade.” > > In the 20th century, “libertarians” supported Cap and Trade, correctly viewing it as a way to bring “external costs” under the umbrella of _market-based decision making_. > > In the 21st century, “libertarians” reject Cap and Trade, because it is a government regulation. > > It’s a shame that such disparate political ideologies spell their names the same way. Externalities are a result of a failure to adequately recognize property rights. There is nothing market-based about a tax. Let’s leave the word “market” for voluntary interactions, and not allow statists to adopt it like they did the word “liberal” because it has a positive connotation. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/32 "2018-04-14T16:54:37Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’ve wanted to write a novella in which an old Indian Treaty cedes “all the air that passes above Dakota” to Ogwash, Chief of Dakota. Ogwash’s heir goes to court arguing that this includes all air on the planet and soon Ogwash Oxygen has a quadrillion-dollar-plus market cap. In the novella, Ogwash is praised for its benevolence and for the resulting stock market boom. Oxygen consumers who refuse to pay are free to buy oxygen elsewhere but are outfitted with face locks to prevent them from poaching Ogwash’s oxygen. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Externalities are a result of a failure to adequately recognize property rights. > > There is nothing market-based about a tax. Let’s leave the word “market” for voluntary interactions, and not allow statists to adopt it like they did the word “liberal” because it has a positive connotation. So, we _do_ need a Duke of the Air or Ogwash Oxygen Inc. to charge rent on polluters? I’m not clear on how enriching the Duke or Ogwash helps Joe Poorboy’s asthma, but maybe you’ll explain all this in a follow-up. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/33 "2018-04-14T18:15:37Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I ask those in the thread who call themselves libertarians to take a stand on “Cap and Trade.” Even though I don’t fully understand his answer, **WillFarnaby** at least had the gumption to take a stand. How about the other libertarian(s) in the thread? Question too difficult or unsettling? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/34 "2018-04-14T19:45:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Externalities are a result of a failure to adequately recognize property rights. Please explain your market-based solution for how individuals can charge polluters for the damage they do to the air and water that passes through/over the individuals’ properties. Do they just send an invoice? Why would the polluter pay such an invoice? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/35 "2018-04-14T21:36:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I ask those in the thread who call themselves libertarians to take a stand on “Cap and Trade.” > > In the 20th century, “libertarians” supported Cap and Trade, correctly viewing it as a way to bring “external costs” under the umbrella of _market-based decision making_. > > In the 21st century, “libertarians” reject Cap and Trade, because it is a government regulation. > > It’s a shame that such disparate political ideologies spell their names the same way. Cap and trade looked like a market-based system when first proposed, and libertarians gravitated to it not as a libertarian solution, but as a solution that was at least better than having government set absolute limits on a per-business basis or direct which technologies must be used. The argument was that just setting a cap and letting the market sort it out was a better way to go than having governments make all decisions. Then when various cap and trade programs were actually implemented, we realized that they were far from regular markets, that government was still heavily involved, and it became a giant corrupt rent-seeking operation in practice. You could blame libertarians for being too utopian about it and looking at it from a high level back then. They never factored in how much corruption and state control would be there, but since hundreds of billions of dollars are involved, they should have. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/36 "2018-04-14T22:59:38Z")
Just to be clear, the corruption associated with cap and trade is mainly _cheating by businesses_, not corrupt governments. But, yes, _straight taxes_ on pollutants, e.g. a simple carbon tax, _were always a better solution than cap-and-trade._ That much was always clear, both to environmentalists and to intelligent libertarians. The problem is that _ **that was politically impossible** _, mainly because it would impose a huge penalty on big polluters. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/37 "2018-04-14T23:39:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Just to be clear, the corruption associated with cap and trade is mainly _cheating by businesses_, not corrupt governments. It was businesses _enabled by government_. If you want max corruption, the marriage of business and government will do it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/38 "2018-04-15T00:44:41Z")
I have a libertarian streak — but many laws are important and indispensable. I think cap and trade makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/39 "2018-04-16T14:37:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So, we _do_ need a Duke of the Air or Ogwash Oxygen Inc. to charge rent on polluters? I’m not clear on how enriching the Duke or Ogwash helps Joe Poorboy’s asthma, but maybe you’ll explain all this in a follow-up. That would be quite a sidetrack. > **[Law%2C%20Property%20Rights%2C%20and%20Air%20Pollution\_2.pdf](https://mises-media.s3.amazonaws.com/Law%2C%20Property%20Rights%2C%20and%20Air%20Pollution_2.pdf?file=1&type=document)** > > 159.92 KB ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662/40 "2018-04-16T18:25:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > That would be quite a sidetrack. > > [https://mises-media.s3.amazonaws.com/Law%2C%20Property%20Rights%2C%20and%20Air%20Pollution\_2.pdf?file=1&type=document](https://mises-media.s3.amazonaws.com/Law%2C%20Property%20Rights%2C%20and%20Air%20Pollution_2.pdf?file=1&type=document) I’m not going to wade through a 50-page document. If you can synopsize it in a paragraph or two, at least sufficient to motivate me to skim the 50 pages, fine. If not, I’ll have to assume that either you don’t understand Rothbard’s idea, or that there’s no idea there to understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-libertarians-deal-with-inelastic-demand/811662.md?page=3)