# how do muscular MMA fighters punch each other's head? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 1, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323 "2009-06-01T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/21 "2009-06-01T22:57:08Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > An extended family member likes to mention how he once pinned Chuck Liddell. When they were 16, in HS, of course. Quite a feat. šŸ˜ƒ > [@Cardinal](#): > > Then you have Liddell, who simply refuses to wrestle with you. He uses his wrestling/grappling practice to stand up as quickly as possible. Iā€™ve been amazed at how fast heā€™s been able to get to one knee and then get a foot under him. Heā€™s willing to let you punch him, hold his arms pinned, take his back, as long as he can stand up. Itā€™s funny, if you ask him what his secret is on takedown defense, he says itā€™s really simple: he just makes up his mind that heā€™s absolutely not going to go down. It looks like all technique to us, but to him itā€™s all about willpower. > [@Cardinal](#): > > As for that ā€œdrop like heā€™s been shotā€ punch, is it possible that some of them are due to hitting key nerves? I thought I heard that many years ago. I mean, Fedor dropped Arlovski like a sack of wet meal. Iā€™ve seen guys get knocked about clean off their feet and retain most of their senses. I almost guarantee you Arlovskiā€™s been hit that hard in most of his fights. Iā€™ve been replaying it over and over just now, and he gets hit on the side of the jaw, and his head doesnā€™t even move that much. Google ā€œfedor arlovski video slow motionā€ and watch the first link. It goes by almost too quick to see on regular speed, but in slo-mo you can see Fedor whips Arlovskiā€™s head around good and hard. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/22 "2009-06-02T00:04:17Z")
I was watching frame by frame. Hmmm, maybe thatā€™s just as far as a personā€™s head turns to the side. Any ideas about the nerve bundle strike thing? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/23 "2009-06-02T00:10:04Z")
As for the OP, thereā€™s this: ā€œTake a BJJ blackbelt and punch him in the face he turns into a brown belt.Punch him again and he becomes a purple belt and again he becomes a blue belt and again he becomes a white beltā€ -Carlson Gracie The point being that these guys do get befuddled by getting punched. If you watch a UFC fight, a guy will take a direct punch to the face in the power range of the opponent, and heā€™ll take a step or two back, and Joe Rogan will yell, ā€œHeā€™s rocked!ā€ This is when the opponent jumps forward and either starts a punch swarm or tries to take him down. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/24 "2009-06-02T00:44:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That. To punch or kick, you gotta keep a minimum distance between you and your opponent. Once that distance gets closed, the better grappler always wins. That distance is almost always closed, because the ā€œfighting areaā€ is pretty small if Iā€™m not mistaken. And besides, itā€™s only a quick step between punching distance and grappling distance. IIRC, the UFCā€™s ā€œOctagonā€ cage is 32 feet across, which is an awful lot less than it sounds, especially since you start more or less in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/25 "2009-06-02T01:48:51Z")
The other guys have pretty much covered it: itā€™s hard to land a clean blow, you canā€™t punch as hard with thinner gloves, many fighters focus on grappling. That last point is a BIG factor. Every single time I watch a boxing or kickboxing match, I see possibilities for throws, locks, dislocations, leg shots, balance breaks, etc. that are completely ignored because the rules do not allow for that kind of fighting. Disallowing grappling changes _everything_. Closing distances change, blocking methods change, body mechanics have to change because of the potential for grabbing a limb or disrupting balance. All of those things limit the possibilities for landing a clean blow, and they also make it difficult to get the kind of windup you see in boxing. Often, those sweet knockout blows are landed as part of a combination. Try doing a combination in MMA, and the guy will probably grab your arm, shoot in on you, or do something to screw up the setup for a big blow. Set yourself for a big hit, and your opponent will use that second as an opportunity to ground you, or use the extra energy you put into the hit to lock you or throw you. So what you get are punches that will still hurt a lot, but usually donā€™t have knockout potential. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/26 "2009-06-02T13:11:14Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Chuck Liddell punched me in the stomach once. šŸ™‚ I hope his hand was all right! šŸ˜› ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/27 "2009-06-02T14:00:34Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Slight hijack - having watched a few episodes of the UFC series, it seems like thereā€™s an odd overemphasis on the wrestling aspect - the hitting and kicking that there is seem almost more like when cats bat at you with their paws then serious attempts to inflict hurt. Is this because there are a lot of limitations or rules involved in the fighting? The hitting and kicking parts seem to mostly be half hearted and an after thought compared to the wrestling. **jackdavinci** , You posted this immediately after I explained why you canā€™t throw hard, clean punches straight through your opponent. If you were to haul off and punch someone, like a very tough and hardened UFC fighter, and tried to punch clean through him, heā€™d probably remain standing, and youā€™d be facing submission because you just shattered or fractured several bones in your hand. Further, if you miss, you could be a dead man when you are grappled off balanced. It translates to boxing very well, too. Muhammed Ali took down some of the ugliest and most brutal opponents by jabbing them. He didnā€™t haul off and try to punch clean through them. He actually did much of what you describe with the cat-like action. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/28 "2009-06-02T15:15:27Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > It translates to boxing very well, too. Muhammed Ali took down some of the ugliest and most brutal opponents by jabbing them. He didnā€™t haul off and try to punch clean through them. He actually did much of what you describe with the cat-like action. Iā€™m not sure of this. While continuous jabs can certainly wear one down, in boxing the jab is generally used to set up KO punches (or score points). Even Bruce Leeā€™s straight lead was generally a means to close to within trapping range. His straight blast was a series of head shots, which not only inflicted damage but also occupied and distracted an opponent, giving the attacker the opportunity to close and finish through various means. I guess this kinda hints at something I thought of responding to the OP. -Head shots are often of value to an attacker because of the reaction they elicit. Hit a guy in the head and he generally raises his guard to cover his face, opening up his body, groin, and legs. Remember that nearly all techniques are best done in combination. You get a guy to react in any way, it opens up certain lines to exploit with subsequent techniques. -A head shot will generally take a guy out of his rhythm, which the attacker can also exploit. -A poke to the nose will often cause a guyā€™s eyes to water - a blind opponent is generally a good thing. -Also, shots to the face are the most likely to draw blood as the skin is stretched taut over the head/face bones. Blood really tends to take the fight out of folks IRL, and may lead to a TKO in the octagon. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/29 "2009-06-02T15:30:19Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Iā€™m not sure of this. While continuous jabs can certainly wear one down, in boxing the jab is generally used to set up KO punches (or score points). > > . You question my post (ā€œIā€™m not sure of thisā€) thenā€¦Well, youā€™re stating the obvious and confirming what I said. Go back to the OP and understand what the question is all about. Jabs can certainly wear one down. There goes part of the answer, as I have given it. Even in open fighting, jabbing has value. Weā€™ve established many reasons knockout blows are not just a given with these fighters, and weā€™ve established why short punches, jabs and grappling are effective. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/30 "2009-06-02T17:49:11Z")
Fine. I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said Ali took people down by jabbing them. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/31 "2009-06-02T18:24:48Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > I was watching frame by frame. Hmmm, maybe thatā€™s just as far as a personā€™s head turns to the side. Any ideas about the nerve bundle strike thing? Itā€™s a possibility; some martial arts do utilize nerve strikes (and the trigeminal nerve in the face and along the jawline is one of the nerves targeted), but I donā€™t know how useful theyā€™d be in MMA. My instructor had a demonstration of a leopard punch and claw to a nerve center under the armpit, and it hurt so bad he saw stars and had his arm temporarily paralyzed. The problem in MMA is that the claw would be illegal and a precise targeting strike to a nerve might be too much of a low percentage technique in the ring - hard to pull off against a guy five feet away jumping around like a maniac, and if it didnā€™t work you would have been better off just punching the guy five times and racking up points with the judges. > [@Sleel](#): > > Every single time I watch a boxing or kickboxing match, I see possibilities for throws, locks, dislocations, leg shots, balance breaks, etc. that are completely ignored because the rules do not allow for that kind of fighting. Disallowing grappling changes everything. Closing distances change, blocking methods change, body mechanics have to change because of the potential for grabbing a limb or disrupting balance. More or less what I was going to say. Adding grappling chages the range. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > I hope his hand was all right! He made a speedy and complete recovery. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/32 "2009-06-03T00:48:42Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Slight hijack - having watched a few episodes of the UFC series, it seems like thereā€™s an odd overemphasis on the wrestling aspect - the hitting and kicking that there is seem almost more like when cats bat at you with their paws then serious attempts to inflict hurt. Is this because there are a lot of limitations or rules involved in the fighting? The hitting and kicking parts seem to mostly be half hearted and an after thought compared to the wrestling. Itā€™s not because of limitations; quite the opposite. You canā€™t ā€œswing for the fencesā€, because if you do so, your opponent will duck under, grab your legs, and take you down. If a jab has ~5% chance of connecting, why would you risk opening yourself up to make a full-out commitment swing that has a lesser chance of connecting? There are plenty of knockouts in MMA. But they are not the norm. Most guys who slightly prefer standup will go to the ground if theyā€™re facing a guy who is famous for a strong stand-up and a weak ground game. You usually only see knockouts when they are between 2 guys who _really_ prefer standup (so much so that even the guy who is 80% standup-20% ground game would prefer to stand up against a Chuck Liddell-type [or in the case where Tito Ortiz felt honor-bound to stand and bang with Chuck because he said he would.]) ---
**Author:** ![Animastryfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/33 "2009-06-03T02:18:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That. To punch or kick, you gotta keep a minimum distance between you and your opponent. Once that distance gets closed, the better grappler always wins. That distance is almost always closed, because the ā€œfighting areaā€ is pretty small if Iā€™m not mistaken. And besides, itā€™s only a quick step between punching distance and grappling distance. > > Plus, as any bare knuckle boxer will tell you, it takes quite a bit of work to actually knock out someone with strikes alone. With a decent and fast submission hold, you can end the fight in a few seconds. And not get your teeth knocked out and your face consistently smashed up in the process, which counts as a plus too ;). I recommend watching a few videos of Royce Gracie (or any Gracie) on youtube to see how powerful grappling is. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/34 "2009-06-03T05:35:51Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > If you get hit on the head and your head doesnā€™t move, what is causing the brain to move against the inside of the skull? No energy is being transmitted to the brain if thereā€™s no motion. The punch hits the skull not the brain. The faster the acceleration and deceleration of the head, the more likely you are to have a traumatic brain injury. Iā€™m not sure what you mean by ā€˜traumatic brain injuryā€™ but having watched a lot of MMA/UFC/WEC, I can tell you that a lot of knockouts come from hitting an opponent when their head is on the ground and does not move. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/35 "2009-06-03T08:26:56Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > **jackdavinci** , You posted this immediately after I explained why you canā€™t throw hard, clean punches straight through your opponent. . Yeah I thought about that after I posted. I guess that explains the lack of boxing punches, and the other posts explain the lack of focus on hitting. The one thing that still seems odd is when they are down on the ground, face to face in a partial hold, one thing I notice a lot is the guy on top will kind of swat at the other guys face or ribs, but it gives the appearance that heā€™s actively trying not to hurt the guy too badly. Maybe it hurts a lot more than it looks, but if not it almost seems like the effort would be better focused on improving the hold than on getting in a couple light swats. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/36 "2009-06-03T16:13:39Z")
These guys punch as hard as they can without breaking their own hands and fingers. It really is that simple. You canā€™t punch a guy in the skull with essentially no hand protection and with all your might all the time and not break your hand. And the ribs? Wow. Skull and ribs are some of the toughest things to punch! You should see what happens when they kick with all their might, straight through an opponents legs. If you whip kick 100%, an your shin contacts his shin, and you catch him on a thicker/stronger part of the shin, donā€™t be surprised to hear the sound of wood snapping (your leg snapping). There are videos out there of clean leg breaks and compound fractures from landing these kicks. Guess you need to punch someone in the skull and report back! Or, find something of similar hardness, and punch with all you got. Report back from the E.R. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/37 "2009-06-03T16:42:57Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > ā€¦ it almost seems like the effort would be better focused on improving the hold than on getting in a couple light swats. Those punches to the ribs arenā€™t going to stop the fight, but Iā€™m pretty sure they do hurt. I think that usually the point of them is to force your opponent to defend them, thereby moving his arm (e.g. stop defending his head and defend his side), giving the rib-puncher an opportunity to improve his hold. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/38 "2009-06-03T16:45:53Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > These guys punch as hard as they can without breaking their own hands and fingers. It really is that simple. Iā€™m not up on current MMA rules. Why donā€™t they use the heels of their palms or hammer fists instead of their knucks when striking hard targets such as heads and ribs? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/39 "2009-06-03T16:47:56Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Iā€™m not up on current MMA rules. Why donā€™t they use the heels of their palms or hammer fists instead of their knucks when striking hard targets such as heads and ribs? Because itā€™s really, really hard to land a blow using the heel of the palm or a hammer motion, and a palm strike to somebodyā€™s ribs isnā€™t going to do much to them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323/40 "2009-06-03T17:04:32Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Iā€™m not up on current MMA rules. Why donā€™t they use the heels of their palms or hammer fists instead of their knucks when striking hard targets such as heads and ribs? With tape and gloves, Iā€™m not sure palm heels would give much of an advantage over knuckles, plus it takes away an inch or two of reach and risks a warning if your finger finds its way into their eye. Hammer fists are definitely used, though, especially on the ground. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muscular-mma-fighters-punch-each-others-head/498323.md?page=3)