# How Do Muslims 'Radicalize' Other Muslims In Western Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 17, 2015, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788 "2015-11-17T09:29:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/1 "2015-11-17T09:29:23Z")
Just one question that has me stumped, since the recent Muslim terrorist attacks, in Paris. The mastermind behind them was from Belgium (at this point, information is still coming in–but I think we can safely say that). In fact, he came from a Muslim enclave in Belgium, where many Muslims are born, and apparently soon “radicalized” into jihadist attacks. (At this point, I must say, that most Muslims are not at all like this yada yada yada. I say it with a little sarcasm. But it is true, you know.) My question is, How do they radicalize people in Europe–esp. western Europe? I know in Germany, simply denying the Holocaust can get you 3 years in prison. And I assume the same is true in the rest of Europe. (I once read this story of an American in Sweden making the Nazi salute during a concert. He could have gotten up to 90 days in jail, according to the report.) My point is, freedom of expression is very severely limited in western Europe. Much more so than in the USA, from what I have read and heard. (According to my law dictionary, the standard of proof in the US is “clear and present danger”. According to other sources, it’s “imminent lawlessness”. But in either case, it’s very loose here.) So how do they do it there? Why don’t they get caught? And more importantly, Why aren’t they stopped, **long before** it gets to that point? I mean, France. They really respect the rule of law, over rights there. At least that is what I’ve always heard. Is that wrong? :):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/2 "2015-11-17T09:41:09Z")
How do you expect a state surveillance to capture every discussion between two brothers and another random person? Freedom of expression is hardly “severely limited” even if it does not follow the american ideas… The EU does not run a huge police state à la STASI. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/3 "2015-11-17T09:45:30Z")
I had been trying to find some satisfactory answers online as well and found a lot of guesswork and bias. Take it for what its worth, but I found the Wikipedia entry on [radicalization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalization#The_radicalization_process) to be a decent “beginner’s summary.” Certainly not the last word, but it might be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/4 "2015-11-17T09:47:35Z")
In any case, the profile of the Belgians and the French seduced into the path of the DAESH is in majority youth, muslim, who have a history of petty crime or even serious crime and involvement in bad things, feeling they lost their way, followed by new converts who were then led into the Salafiste and the Takfiri thought by those promoting the idea it is the true and real and pure way. This statement here from the[FBI and the British intelligence conclusions](http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/03/mehdi-hasan-how-islamic-islamic-state) is right for this kind of profile. > [@](#): > > American former FBI agent Ali H Soufan, who led the bureau’s pre-9/11 investigation into al-Qaeda, observed: “When I first began interrogating al-Qaeda members, I found that while they could quote Bin Laden’s sayings by heart, I knew far more of the Quran than they did – and in fact some barely knew classical Arabic, the language of both the hadith and the Quran. An understanding of their thought process and the limits of their knowledge enabled me and my colleagues to use their claimed piousness against them.” > > Three years earlier, in 2008, a classified briefing note on radicalisation, prepared by MI5’s behavioural science unit, was obtained by the Guardian. It revealed: “Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could . . . be regarded as religious novices.” The MI5 analysts noted the disproportionate number of converts and the high propensity for “drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes”. The newspaper claimed they concluded, “A well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.” It is in any case already people who are on the margins of the correct society who have proven to be the most converted into the DAESH type way, and they are already living partly ‘underground.’ It is like asking why don’t the police catch all the Mafia… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/5 "2015-11-17T11:02:45Z")
Let’s see. Worst financial crisis in 9 decades and you are wondering why there is social unrest. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/6 "2015-11-17T11:11:40Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > My question is, How do they radicalize people in Europe–esp. western Europe? I know in Germany, simply denying the Holocaust can get you 3 years in prison. And I assume the same is true in the rest of Europe. (I once read this story of an American in Sweden making the Nazi salute during a concert. He could have gotten up to 90 days in jail, according to the report.) You’d be wrong. Holocaust denial is not against the law across Europe, just in select places. Things like a Nazi salute may come under laws regarding inciting racial hatred. As an example, a teacher I had at nightschool here in Sweden (teaching me to use Photoshop) turned out to be a holocaust denial. He missed some of my lessons as he went to a Holocaust denial conference in Iran (a conference that I remember Jon Stewart talking about on The Daily Show) and he did a lecture there. I had a PDF of a paper he wrote somewhere, which was linked from his personal web space that he shared the URL to with us on the course. Not only was this not illegal, but the school couldn’t sack him. I gather he had permission to miss those lessons and what he did in his free time was not illegal. So the unions had to discuss it with him to come up with some kind of arrangement to pay him off. It was quite a thing in the local press and there’s a short Wikipedia page about him: > **[Internationella konferensen för att granska den globala visionen av Förintelsen](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Bernhoff)** > > Internationella konferensen för att granska den globala visionen av Förintelsen var en konferens som hölls i Iran, december 2006. Konferensen anordnades av "Institute for Political and International Studies" i Teheran och det var 67 deltagare från 30 länder. Bland deltagarna fanns många kända förintelseförnekare. And put through an automatic translator: [https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsv.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJan\_Bernhoff](https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsv.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJan_Bernhoff) ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/7 "2015-11-17T11:13:57Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > My point is, freedom of expression is very severely limited in western Europe. First, this is absolutely ridiculous. Actually, some have argued for decades that there’s too much freedom in Europe, especially as far as criminals and religious/political extremists are concerned. No cite, sorry, you’ll have to take the word of someone who’s lived here for 41 years and has heard the same BS forever and everywhere (“they have all the rights”, “they can say/dress/do whatever/however they please”, “try and say these sort of things in their countries”, “what we need is a dictator/a good old war/a police state”) And by the way can you enlighten me on these ridiculous and sometimes violent controversies around the Pledge of Allegiance and the Flag of the United States? To your questions, now. > [@](#): > > In any case, the profile of the Belgians and the French seduced into the path of the DAESH is in majority youth, muslim, who have a history of petty crime or even serious crime and involvement in bad things, feeling they lost their way, followed by new converts who were then led into the Salafiste and the Takfiri thought by those promoting the idea it is the true and real and pure way. As **Ramira** has said, you get some career criminals of muslim background who suddenly turn to religious terrorism both as a redemption (at least they are led to believe that) and a revenge against society which is, of course, seen as the source of all their problems. This change often happens in prison. There are dozens of such cases. We had Sharia4Belgium all over the news in 2011-2012 IIRC. I saw a documentary about these clowns a couple of years ago. At one point, their leader says something like (quoting from memory): “Prison is best place to get new recruits because they’re all against the system there. Muslims, non-muslims. All against the system.” So, angry, young people who feel, rightly or wrongly, marginalized or victimized, who do not fit in, end up having problems with the police and finally “see the light” that justifies their existence and punishes “bad society” which “never gave them a chance”. The case of converts is more complicated but also more straightforward. Some converts feel that they have to prove that they have become “good muslims” and left behind the errors of their pasts. For the less bright of them, that means doing more than regular muslims do, just to show how pious they have become. From there, it’s slippery slope that can lead to Takfirism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/8 "2015-11-17T11:45:42Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Just one question that has me stumped, since the recent Muslim terrorist attacks, in Paris. The mastermind behind them was from Belgium (at this point, information is still coming in–but I think we can safely say that). In fact, he came from a Muslim enclave in Belgium, where many Muslims are born, and apparently soon “radicalized” into jihadist attacks. As noted, those enlisted by Daesh, (including those born Muslim and those born into Christian or non-practicing Christian homes), tend to be young people who have not grown up as believing Muslims. They tend to be kids who grew up with no specific religious beliefs, who are also at the periphery of society–lacking jobs, frequently from a group that suffers genuine or perceived persecution. Daesh recruitment offers stability, inclusion, support and related things that they do not find in society. Note that the French “youth riots” of a couple of years ago were characterized as “Muslim” riots, yet the Mosques were condemning them and the kids were not generally attending mosques, anyway. This is the same disaffected group that provides the majority of the recruits, today. With the current economic situations, unemployment runs high and discrimination against kids with Arabic names is fairly blatant, preventing them from getting jobs. Many live in what, in the U.S., would be regarded as “the projects” where the police, (and society at large), are regarded as the enemy. This makes recruitment easier. As noted, quite a few the Daesh recruits have been disaffected Christians and people unaffiliated with any religion. We saw similar events in the U.S. in the 1930s, where a lot of disaffected people were lured to Nazi and communist groups that promised better lives if they just joined together. > [@Jim\_B](#): > > (At this point, I must say, that most Muslims are not at all like this yada yada yada. I say it with a little sarcasm. But it is true, you know.) Your sarcasm is misplaced. [Most practicing Muslims are, indeed, good citizens who are assimilating into society](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17148755#post17148755), not getting involved with crime, and do not share anything with the Daesh recruits beyond a label of"Muslim." ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/9 "2015-11-17T16:33:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Most practicing Muslims** are, indeed, good citizens who are assimilating into society, not getting involved with crime, and d **o not share anything with the Daesh recruits beyond a label of"Muslim."** This is patently false. Most practicing Muslims, like most ISIS recruits, share a belief that it is their religious duty to follow the commandments laid down in the Koran, and to model their behavior on the example of Mohammed as recorded in Hadith. In addition to this, or indeed as a result of this belief, they share high levels of [homophobia](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/can-we-finally-talk-about_b_828037.html) and of course [anti-Semitism](http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/anti-semitism-international/new-adl-poll-anti-semitic-attitudes-19-countries.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/#.VktPFH6rRhE): > [@](#): > > THE ANTI-SEMITISM INDEX SCORES WERE EXTREMELY HIGH FOR MUSLIMS ACROSS ALL SIX OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES SAMPLED, WITH THE LOWEST LEVEL RECORDED IN FRANCE: > > Belgium: 68 percent of Muslims harbor anti-Semitic attitudes, compared to 21 percent overall; > Spain: 62 percent, compared to 29 percent overall; > Germany: 56 percent, compared to 16 percent overall; > Italy: 56 percent, compared to 29 percent overall; > United Kingdom: 54 percent, compared to 12 percent overall; > France: 49 percent, compared to 17 percent overall. [Mehdi Hasan:](http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community) > [@](#): > > It pains me to have to admit this but anti-Semitism isn’t just tolerated in some sections of the British Muslim community; it’s routine and commonplace. Any Muslims reading this article – if they are honest with themselves – will know instantly what I am referring to. It’s our dirty little secret. You could call it the banality of Muslim anti-Semitism. > > I can’t keep count of the number of Muslims I have come across – from close friends and relatives to perfect strangers – for whom weird and wacky anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are the default explanation for a range of national and international events. Who killed Diana and Dodi? The Mossad, say many Muslims. They didn’t want the British heir to the throne having an Arab stepfather. What about 9/11? Definitely those damn Yehudis. I mean, why else were 4,000 Jews in New York told to stay home from work on the morning of 11 September 2001? How about the financial crisis? Er, Jewish bankers. Obviously. Oh, and the Holocaust? Don’t be silly. Never happened. > > Growing up, I always assumed that this obsession with “the Jews” was a hallmark of the “first-generation” immigrants from the subcontinent. In recent years, I’ve been depressed to discover that there are plenty of “second-generation” Muslim youths, born and bred in multiracial Britain, who have drunk the anti-Semitic Kool-Aid. I’m often attacked by them for working in the “Jewish owned media”. > > The truth is that the virus of anti-Semitism has infected members of the British Muslim community, both young and old. No, the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict hasn’t helped matters. But this goes beyond the Middle East. How else to explain why British Pakistanis are so often the most ardent advocates of anti-Semitic conspiracies, even though there are so few Jews living in Pakistan? > > It is sheer hypocrisy for Muslims to complain of Islamophobia in every nook and cranny of British public life, to denounce the newspapers for running Muslim-baiting headlines, and yet ignore the rampant anti-Semitism in our own backyard. We cannot credibly fight Islamophobia while making excuses for Judaeophobia Clearly a typical European Muslim is quite different in thought and deed than an ISIS recruit, but that doesn’t mean that the only thing they share is a label. Acknowledging these similarities is just as important as examining the differences, if the attempt is to put the brakes on the recruiting, rather than to simply continue polishing one’s halo by deflecting criticism from an ideology sacred to a pet minority. Now that we have put that falsehood aside: I am mostly in agreement the [assertion of Gary Brecker](https://pando.com/2015/02/12/the-war-nerd-islamic-state-and-american-narcissism/), that the reasons high numbers of fighters stream from certain European countries are not all that different from the reasons that young men have been so eager to leave the same shores to kill and die, over the centuries: > [@](#): > > “It’s boring in Belgium.” > Remember that line. It was spoken by a typical jihadi who left his boring Belgian life, sheltered by the pious, bland welfare state, to kill and die in Syria. Boredom and easy travel sent these guys on their way, not oppression. A hard look at where the foreign fighters come from will show that. > > Take Indonesia, by far the biggest Muslim-majority country on the planet. There are about 238 million people in Indonesia, and 88% (209 million) are Muslim. The Indonesian population skews very young, and when you break it down by age and gender, you end up with at least 40 million males of military age from Muslim backgrounds. That’s the available pool of jihadi recruits. > > So, how many jihadis has Indonesia contributed to Islamic State? > > About 60, maybe 70. Not 70 thousand, you understand; 70 guys. A miserable two-digit total, about a platoon and a half. Hell, let’s be generous and double that figure, make it 140 men. Triple it! Fine with me! It’s still going to amount to something very close to zero-point-zero Indonesian volunteers in Iraq/Syria. > > It’s not that Indonesia is short on militant Islam. There are plenty of homegrown Indonesian groups, some of them extremely violent—remember the Bali Bombings of 2002, when a couple of hundred party kids were burned alive? That was an all-Indonesian production, and there was plenty of sympathy for the bombers. It also means that would-be jihadis in Indonesia have plenty of local groups to join. They’re too poor to go to Syria, it’s too far away, and they have opportunities nearer home. > > Those same considerations keep young Muslim men from a whole tier of poor countries from contributing to IS. Take Yemen. You’d expect Yemen to provide a huge contingent to IS, because Yemenis are hands-down the toughest Arabs. But there are very few Yemenis in IS, fewer per capita than from the UK, France, or Belgium. That, again, is a very odd stat. > > And you see the same thing with a whole tier of poor, distant Muslim countries. How many IS volunteers from Kazakhstan? From Sudan? From Pakistan? Same answer in every case: Damn few, too few to show up in the charts at all. > > And the same reasons keep these numbers down: Poverty, distance, fighting to be done close to home. > > So who does join IS from far away? Let’s look at an outlier in the other direction: Belgium. > > Everything about Belgium says it shouldn’t be making any significant contribution to the jihad in Iraq/Syria. First, the total population is tiny, less than 11 million people, and unlike the Indonesian population it skews very old. The total number of males of military age in Belgium is less than one million, or about two percent of the equivalent in Indonesia. And unlike Indonesia, Belgium is not a Muslim-majority nation. In fact, only six percent of Belgium is Muslim—call it 600,000 people. Let’s say that the Muslim minority in Belgium skews younger than the general population, as recent immigrant minorities usually do. That still means a total pool of something like 70,000. But from that tiny pool, Belgium has sent at least 350 volunteers to Islamic State. > > Of course, that’s still a tiny number. It’s worth repeating that all these numbers are ridiculously small, considering the pool of Muslim young men who could be taking up jihad. But Belgium is still an anomaly, producing way too many IS volunteers. Never mind what’s wrong with Kansas, what’s up with Belgium? > > Two things: first, that comment “it’s boring in Belgium.” Why is it boring? Consider the huge change in Europe after the great de-fanging of 1945. For certain countries, going o’er the waves to kill and die had been part of the national tradition for generations. Look at which countries relied most heavily on those foreign imperial ambitions in the early 20th century, and you get a surprising match-up with the non-Muslim majority countries with the highest rate of Islamic State volunteers. The states with the highest per capita rates are the ones that formed part of the most aggressive overseas empires of the last century: Turkey, England, France, and Belgium. All these countries have suffered a sudden shrinkage, from ruling distant outposts to maybe, if you’re lucky, getting an office job in the boring ol’ home country, such as it is, what’s left of it. > > Up until the middle of the 20th century, a British, French, or Belgian male who’d attained his eighteenth birthday would have a chance of lording it over somebody far away in the hot countries, with a weapon in his hand, a man to be feared and obeyed. Not a nice dream, maybe, but let’s be honest enough to admit that it’s not exactly an uncommon one, either, especially among males in their late teens—and IS recruits, by the way, skew very young. > > The dream was there for the white British and French and Belgian young men; why is it surprising that it should persist among a later generation of brown young men from those same cities (though quite a lot of white young men in those countries have converted and joined IS as well). ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/10 "2015-11-17T18:35:10Z")
Most practicing Christians, like most KKK recruits, share a belief that it is their religious duty to follow the commandments laid down in the Bible, and to model their behavior on the example of Jesus Christ as recorded in New testament. In addition to this, or indeed as a result of this belief, they share high levels of homophobia and of course anti-Semitism. Knowing that people are people, I strongly contest the idea that the average Muslim is more scrupulous in following his/her religion’s teachings than the average Christian. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/11 "2015-11-17T19:11:47Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > This is patently false. Most practicing Muslims, like most ISIS recruits, share a belief that it is their religious duty to follow the commandments laid down in the Koran, and to model their behavior on the example of Mohammed as recorded in Hadith. In addition to this, or indeed as a result of this belief, they share high levels of [homophobia](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/can-we-finally-talk-about_b_828037.html) and of course [anti-Semitism](http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/anti-semitism-international/new-adl-poll-anti-semitic-attitudes-19-countries.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/#.VktPFH6rRhE): And some of our GOP candidates share a desire to execute homosexuals just like ISIS. And want a Christian version of Sharia law. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/12 "2015-11-17T19:14:19Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Knowing that people are people, I strongly contest the idea that the average Muslim is more scrupulous in following his/her religion’s teachings than the average Christian. Well, then, what is your explanation for the high level of homophobia among Muslims? Surely you don’t think that some people are just naturally more inclined to hate gay people than others? [Pew](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/): > [@](#): > > Muslims overwhelmingly say that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, including three-quarters or more in 33 of the 36 countries where the question was asked [Living in fear: Egypt’s gay community](Living in fear: Egypt’s gay community) [The Truth Behind the Turkish Police Attack on Istanbul’s Gay Pride Parade](http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/interpreting_the_turkish_police_attack_on_istanbuls_gay_pride_parade_201506) [‘Gay Parties’ Raided In Saudi Arabia; Religious Police Arrest Several People On Suspicion Of Homosexuality](http://www.ibtimes.com/gay-parties-raided-saudi-arabia-religious-police-arrest-several-people-suspicion-1968038) [ISIS murders gay couple by throwing them off rooftop](http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/10/isis-murders-gay-couple-by-throwing-them-off-rooftop/) [Meanwhile in Alabama](http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/07/all_alabama_counties_complying.html) ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/13 "2015-11-17T19:20:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Matthew Wayne “Matt” Shepard (December 1, 1976 – October 12, 1998) was an American student at the University of Wyoming who was beaten, tortured and left to die near Laramie, Wyoming on the night of October 6, 1998, and died six days later at Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado, on October 12, from severe head injuries. > **[Matthew Shepard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard)** > > Matthew Wayne Shepard (December 1, 1976 – October 12, 1998) was an American student at the University of Wyoming who was beaten, tortured, and left to die near Laramie on the night of October 6, 1998. He was taken by rescuers to Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado, where he died six days later from severe head injuries received during the attack. > Suspects Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson were arrested shortly after the attack and charged with first-degree murder following She... ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/14 "2015-11-17T19:27:00Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And some of our GOP candidates share a desire to execute homosexuals just like ISIS. Cite? > [@](#): > > And want a Christian version of Sharia law. What percentage of the GOP voters do you suspect favor the death penalty for abandoning or blaspheming their religion, as opposed to those in favor of the protections granted by the First Amendment to freedom of speech and faith? Or favor stoning adulterers? Pew examines Muslim beliefs about these issues [here](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/). I don’t see how this can not cause a person to be alarmed and concerned about the attitudes of Muslims towards crimes of consent and conscience, unless one harbors underlying bigotry that tolerates a Medieval mindset only when it’s victim is of some ‘other’ variety than themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/15 "2015-11-17T19:35:47Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > [Matthew Shepard - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard) You certainly don’t have to go back seventeen years to find a gay victim of a hate crime in the US. If you are trying to set up some sort of equivalence, however, keep in mind that this is the kind of thing that nourishes the narrative of the Islamists, who portray the West as decadent, without morals, and hypocritical in our condemnation of their extreme, institutionalized misogyny and homophobia, utilizing incidents like the murder of Mathew Shepard. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/16 "2015-11-17T19:38:45Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Cite? > > What percentage of the GOP voters do you suspect favor the death penalty for abandoning or blaspheming their religion, as opposed to those in favor of the protections granted by the First Amendment to freedom of speech and faith? Or favor stoning adulterers? Pew examines Muslim beliefs about these issues [here](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/). > > I don’t see how this can not cause a person to be alarmed and concerned about the attitudes of Muslims towards crimes of consent and conscience, unless one harbors underlying bigotry that tolerates a Medieval mindset only when it’s victim is of some ‘other’ variety than themselves. [Salon.](http://www.salon.com/2015/11/02/put_gay_people_to_death_ted_cruz_bobby_jindal_and_mike_huckabee_to_speak_at_iowa_religious_liberty_conference_led_by_noxious_right_wing_radio_host/) > [@](#): > > Three candidates—Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, and Bobby Jindal—are scheduled to speak this weekend at a conference hosted by a radio host named Kevin Swanson who has openly advocated for putting gay people to death. [Washington Monthly](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_01/mike_huckabee_pushes_for_an_am053867.php) > [@](#): > > ``` > Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee (R) said during an appearance Thursday on a Christian television show that he’s thinking about running for President to help the nation know where laws come from: God. > > “We cannot survive as a republic if we do not become, once again, a God-centered nation that understands that our laws do not come from man, they come from God,” he said on the show “Life Today.” > > ``` [Forward Progressives](http://www.forwardprogressives.com/ted-cruz-tells-hate-group-way-save-u-s-turning-theocracy-video/) > [@](#): > > Well, while speaking to the American Family Association (a known anti-gay hate group), Cruz said that the only way this country can be saved is for evangelicals to rise up and vote for politicians who’ll pass legislation based upon Biblical principles. [Addicting Info](http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/01/27/bobby-jindals-big-prayer-meeting-explicitly-calls-for-american-theocracy-video/) > [@](#): > > This past weekend, Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal held a “prayer rally” meant to kick off his presidential campaign that he hasn’t officially announced yet. The rally was chock-full of bible-thumpin’, Jesus praisin’ and at least one “prophet” that claims she can raise the dead. > > But it was also the host to one of the most anti-American movements among the religious right: Christian Dominionists. > > If you’re not familiar with Christian Dominionism (shame on you), it’s literally the same idea as the Sharia law that conservatives pretend is about to destroy America: Every aspect of life, from politics to what you can wear, should be controlled by religion. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/17 "2015-11-17T20:12:26Z")
What does homophobia and anti-Semitism (things that, as has been pointed out, are really, _really_ common among Christians as well) have to do with the question in the OP? Other than being a laughably transparent attempt to distract from the fact that the most likely candidates for radicalization among Muslims (to the point where jihadist groups prefer to target them for recruitment) are [those Muslims that are the _least_ religious](http://www.businessinsider.com/the-manual-al-qaeda-and-now-isis-use-to-brainwash-people-online-2015-7), that is. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/18 "2015-11-17T20:29:49Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > You certainly don’t have to go back seventeen years to find a gay victim of a hate crime in the US. If you are trying to set up some sort of equivalence, however, keep in mind that this is the kind of thing that nourishes the narrative of the Islamists, who portray the West as decadent, without morals, and hypocritical in our condemnation of their extreme, institutionalized misogyny and homophobia, utilizing incidents like the murder of Mathew Shepard. You know what else nourishes the narrative of the Islamists? Saying things like the members of ISIS are merely following their religion as it was intended to be followed. Oh, and [on the subject of blasphemy](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/05/28/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/): > [@](#): > > A new Pew Research analysis finds that as of 2012, nearly a quarter of the world’s countries and territories (22%) had anti-blasphemy laws or policies, and one-in-ten (11%) had laws or policies penalizing apostasy. The legal punishments for such transgressions vary from fines to death. > > […] > > We found that laws restricting apostasy and blasphemy are most common in the Middle East and North Africa, where 14 of the 20 countries (70%) criminalize blasphemy and 12 of the 20 countries (60%) criminalize apostasy. While apostasy laws exist in only two other regions of the world – Asia-Pacific and sub-Saharan Africa – blasphemy laws can be found in all regions, including Europe (in 16% of countries) and the Americas (31%). > > […] > > Pakistan’s blasphemy laws have their origins in the country’s colonial past, when British colonial rulers first introduced penalties for insulting religious beliefs. Hmm…what religion were the British colonial rulers, again? > [@](#): > > But Pakistan is not alone. Nine of the 50 countries in the Asia-Pacific region (18%) had blasphemy laws in 2012, and in Europe such laws were found in seven out of 45 nations (16%). In November 2012, the Dutch parliament dissolved its blasphemy law, which was drafted in the 1930s and had not been used for half a century. > > In the Americas, 11 out of 35 countries (31%) had blasphemy laws, including the Bahamas, where the publication or sale of blasphemous material can be punished with up to two years imprisonment. The U.S. does not have any federal blasphemy laws, but as of 2012, several U.S. states – including Massachusetts and Michigan – still had anti-blasphemy laws on the books. However, the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution would almost certainly prevent the enforcement of any such law. > > In South America, Peru’s federal law does not formally prohibit blasphemy, but local government authorities have enforced penalties for it. In October 2012, a district mayor in Lima closed a public art exhibit that featured a naked statue of Christ after religious groups condemned it as blasphemy. According to the U.S. State Department’s International Religious Freedom Report, representatives of the local art community “expressed concern over censorship and freedom of speech” after the incident. And I’m sure that [these people facing penalties and imprisonment under Greece’s blasphemy law](http://www.npr.org/2013/01/04/168546876/old-greek-blasphemy-laws-stir-up-modern-drama) are so glad that such things are merely a Muslim problem. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/19 "2015-11-17T20:34:02Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Salon.](http://www.salon.com/2015/11/02/put_gay_people_to_death_ted_cruz_bobby_jindal_and_mike_huckabee_to_speak_at_iowa_religious_liberty_conference_led_by_noxious_right_wing_radio_host/) > [Washington Monthly](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_01/mike_huckabee_pushes_for_an_am053867.php) > [Forward Progressives](http://www.forwardprogressives.com/ted-cruz-tells-hate-group-way-save-u-s-turning-theocracy-video/) > [Addicting Info](http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/01/27/bobby-jindals-big-prayer-meeting-explicitly-calls-for-american-theocracy-video/) Your first citation merely shows an association between GOP candidates and a radio host who expressed those views. As despicable as the association is, it is not proof that “some of our GOP candidates share a desire to execute homosexuals just like ISIS.” The fact that this was an embarrassment, and that [Huckabee](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/people/kevin-swanson), at least, felt the need to issue a press release claiming to be ignorant of the host’s statements, is a clue as to how marginal this extreme viewpoint is among GOP voters. The rest of your sources discuss a return to Christian law generally, but say nothing about opinions on stoning adulterers specifically. One can assume that most of those in favor of this revival, whatever regressive nature it takes in their fantasy, does not include this barbaric punishment. The [Pew survey](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/), however, asks specifically: > [@](#): > > Some of the highest support for stoning is found in South Asia and the Middle East-North Africa region. In Pakistan (89%) and Afghanistan (85%), more than eight-in-ten Muslims who want Islamic law as their country’s official law say adulterers should be stoned, while nearly as many say the same in the Palestinian territories (84%) and Egypt (81%). A majority also support stoning as a penalty for the unfaithful in Jordan (67%), Iraq (58%). However, support is significantly lower in Lebanon (46%) and Tunisia (44%), where less than half of those who support sharia as the official law of the land believe that adulterers should be stoned. Again, this is a false equivalency, and is a betrayal of the victims of Islamist violence and oppression. There is a little bit of narcissism involved the reflex to always point out something about American politics, no matter what issue we are discussing, anywhere in the world, as if [only our sins mattered](https://pando.com/2015/02/12/the-war-nerd-islamic-state-and-american-narcissism/). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/20 "2015-11-17T20:40:21Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Your first citation merely shows an association between GOP candidates and a radio host who expressed those views. As despicable as the association is, it is not proof that “some of our GOP candidates share a desire to execute homosexuals just like ISIS.” The fact that this was an embarrassment, and that [Huckabee](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/people/kevin-swanson), at least, felt the need to issue a press release **claiming to be ignorant of the host’s statements** , is a clue as to how marginal this extreme viewpoint is among GOP voters. He’s either a liar or he has the world’s most incompetent staff in vetting his appearances. I’m going with liar. From your Huckabee link. > [@](#): > > In a press gaggle at last weekend’s National Religious Liberties Conference in Iowa, Republican presidential candidate **Mike Huckabee dismissed concerns** about the extremism of its organizer, Kevin Swanson, telling a reporter that he didn’t “have any knowledge” that Swanson backs the death penalty for homosexuality. Doesn’t sound the least bit remorseful. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788.md?page=2)