# How Do Muslims 'Radicalize' Other Muslims In Western Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 17, 2015, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788 "2015-11-17T09:29:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/21 "2015-11-17T20:48:45Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Just one question that has me stumped, since the recent Muslim terrorist attacks, in Paris. The mastermind behind them was from Belgium (at this point, information is still coming in–but I think we can safely say that). In fact, he came from a Muslim enclave in Belgium, where many Muslims are born, and apparently soon “radicalized” into jihadist attacks. (At this point, I must say, that most Muslims are not at all like this yada yada yada. I say it with a little sarcasm. But it is true, you know.) > > My question is, How do they radicalize people in Europe–esp. western Europe? I know in Germany, simply denying the Holocaust can get you 3 years in prison. And I assume the same is true in the rest of Europe. (I once read this story of an American in Sweden making the Nazi salute during a concert. He could have gotten up to 90 days in jail, according to the report.) > > My point is, freedom of expression is very severely limited in western Europe. Much more so than in the USA, from what I have read and heard. (According to my law dictionary, the standard of proof in the US is “clear and present danger”. According to other sources, it’s “imminent lawlessness”. But in either case, it’s very loose here.) > > So how do they do it there? Why don’t they get caught? And more importantly, Why aren’t they stopped, **long before** it gets to that point? I mean, France. They really respect the rule of law, over rights there. At least that is what I’ve always heard. Is that wrong? You’re missing the significant distinction between public and private communication. Making a Nazi salute at a concert might get you arrested. Making a Nazi salute at home when a few friends are visiting won’t. It’s pretty much the same in any country. Here in America, if a band of criminals want to get together and plan a bank robbery, they’re not going to do it in a public place. They’ll meet at somebody’s house where the conversation will be private and they can discuss plans to break the law without fear of being overheard. If you’re looking for recruits to join your terrorist organization, you’re not going to announce it at a public meeting. Instead you’ll invite potential recruits to some private function where you can sound them out about their beliefs and gauge their interest. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/22 "2015-11-17T20:55:20Z")
[Meet the American Pastor Behind Uganda’s Anti-Gay Crackdown](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/scott-lively-anti-gay-law-uganda) > [@](#): > > In late February, when Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni signed the nation’s harsh new anti-gay bill into law, he claimed the measure had been “provoked by arrogant and careless western groups that are fond of coming into our schools and recruiting young children into homosexuality.” What he failed to mention is that the legislation—which makes homosexuality a crime punishable by life in prison in some cases—was itself largely due to Western interlopers, chief among them a radical American pastor named Scott Lively. (Lively and his actions in Uganda [are supported and defended by Republicans](http://townhall.com/columnists/mattbarber/2014/11/17/the-crucifixion-of-pastor-scott-lively-n1919143/page/full)) [Republican candidate Fuqua endorses death penalty for rebellious children](http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2012/10/08/republican-candidate-fuqua-endorses-death-penalty-for-rebellious-children) > [@](#): > > Remember former Republican legislator Charlie Fuqua, running again for legislature with financial support from the Arkansas Republican Party and U.S. Reps. Tim Griffin and Steve Womack, among others? We’ve mentioned some excerpts from his book, “God’s Law: The Only Political Solution.” > > I have more for you today. To save space, I’ve omitted the Biblical citation for Fuqua’s endorsement of the death penalty for rebellious children. Fuqua doesn’t think execution would have to be used often on children who defied their parents, but suggests the deterrent effect of its legality would be beneficial. (Fuquha’s campaign, as mentioned, was [supported by the Arkansas Republican committee and several Republican Representatives](http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2012/10/06/will-republican-party-repudiate-cranks-not-likely-they-are-the-gop)) [Invitation to a Stoning](Invitation to a Stoning) > [@](#): > > Reconstructionists provide the most enthusiastic constituency for stoning since the Taliban seized Kabul. “Why stoning?” asks North. “There are many reasons. First, the implements of execution are available to everyone at virtually no cost.” Thrift and ubiquity aside, “executions are community projects–not with spectators who watch a professional executioner do `his’ duty, but rather with actual participants.” You might even say that like square dances or quilting bees, they represent the kind of hands-on neighborliness so often missed in this impersonal era. “That modern Christians never consider the possibility of the reintroduction of stoning for capital crimes,” North continues, “indicates how thoroughly humanistic concepts of punishment have influenced the thinking of Christians.” And he may be right about that last point, you know. (The Christian Reconstructionists/Dominionists mentioned in the article are [highly influential](http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/6/30/132459/854) [among](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/14/dominionism-michele-bachmann-and-rick-perry-s-dangerous-religious-bond.html) [Republican politicians](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/12/indoctrination-at-the-dinner-table-rand-paul-and-ted-cruz-have-serious-daddy-issues.html)) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/23 "2015-11-17T20:56:01Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > What does homophobia and anti-Semitism (things that, as has been pointed out, are really, _really_ common among Christians as well) have to do with the question in the OP? I was refuting a clearly erroneous statement: that ISIS recruits have nothing in common with the average Muslim, other than a label. Surely you can admit that these differences and commonalities play a part in Muslims’ resistance or susceptibility to recruitment by ISIS. That ISIS shares with the average Muslim antisemitism, hatred of Israel, homophobia, and distrust of liberal secular traditions means that these are things they do not have to convince their average recruit. Instead of the hatred being an obstacle, it is an asset in recruiting those who share these views. > [@](#): > > that the most likely candidates for radicalization among Muslims (to the point where jihadist groups prefer to target them for recruitment) are [those Muslims that are the _least_ religious](http://www.businessinsider.com/the-manual-al-qaeda-and-now-isis-use-to-brainwash-people-online-2015-7), that is. People’s beliefs ebb and flow over time. Many devout Muslims I have met have told me about periods of their life when they, as they phrased it, “were not religious”. It is troubling that one of the ways that people are reconnecting with the religion of their youth, or with their newly joined faith, is by joining a band of murderous psychopaths. And it is a fact that a major factor in this trend is the partial commonality of belief between ISIS and the average Muslim, including the common source texts and the shared belief in their infallibility and authenticity. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/24 "2015-11-17T21:05:44Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I was refuting a clearly erroneous statement: that ISIS recruits have nothing in common with the average Muslim, other than a label. They don’t. Muslims are, in fact, [the main victims of ISIS’ violence](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/16/muslims-hate-isis-most-of-all.html), precisely because they _don’t_ share anything in common with ISIS’ members. > [@](#): > > People’s beliefs ebb and flow over time. Many devout Muslims I have met have told me about periods of their life when they, as they phrased it, “were not religious”. It is troubling that one of the ways that people are reconnecting with the religion of their youth, or with their newly joined faith, is by joining a band of murderous psychopaths. And it is a fact that a major factor in this trend is the partial commonality of belief between ISIS and the average Muslim, including the common source texts and the shared belief in their infallibility and authenticity. Except that, as has already been pointed out to you before, Muslims who are more religious are in fact the most resistant to ISIS’ recruitment appeals, which is exactly the opposite of the way it would be if your assertion that joining up with ISIS correlated with going from “not religious” to “religious”. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/25 "2015-11-17T21:34:55Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > They don’t. Muslims are, in fact, [the main victims of ISIS’ violence](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/16/muslims-hate-isis-most-of-all.html), precisely because they _don’t_ share anything in common with ISIS’ members. I have shown directly that they do indeed share anti-Semetism and homophobia with ISIS. That is not something ISIS has to teach, in fact it is one way Muslim communities prep Muslims for recruitment, as do a shared set of religious texts, and an often shared view on their infallibility, in the case of the Koran, and authenticity, in the case of hadith. > [@](#): > > Except that, as has already been pointed out to you before, Muslims who are more religious are in fact the most resistant to ISIS’ recruitment appeals, which is exactly the opposite of the way it would be if your assertion that joining up with ISIS correlated with going from “not religious” to “religious”. They are becoming more religious by the framework they have come to understand, in which action on the battlefield shows ultimate devotion to their religion. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/26 "2015-11-17T21:43:55Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I have shown directly that they do indeed share anti-Semetism and homophobia with ISIS. Except ISIS isn’t targeting gays and Jews. They’re targeting other Muslims (you know, the very same people who, according to you, are just as homophobic and anti-Semitic) and “Crusaders”. > [@](#): > > That is not something ISIS has to teach, in fact it is one way Muslim communities prep Muslims for recruitment, as do a shared set of religious texts, and an often shared view on their infallibility, in the case of the Koran, and authenticity, in the case of hadith. You’re really stuck on that whole “ISIS are just following Islam as it’s taught in the Islamic scriptures” thing, in spite of being repeatedly shown to be wrong about that, aren’t you? > [@](#): > > They are becoming more religious by the framework they have come to understand, in which action on the battlefield shows ultimate devotion to their religion. The perverted version that ISIS teaches, perhaps. And you can tell it’s perverted from the way even other devout Muslims practice it by the fact that ISIS has little success recruiting from the already-religious. Those who are already familiar with Islam and live according to its teachings are the ones most likely to reject ISIS recruitment. It’s only among those who are uneducated and unpracticed in Islam that ISIS has the most success. That fact alone torpedoes your entire thesis. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/27 "2015-11-17T21:50:27Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > They don’t. Muslims are, in fact, [the main victims of ISIS’ violence](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/16/muslims-hate-isis-most-of-all.html), precisely because they _don’t_ share anything in common with ISIS’ members. In fact, in countries where Muslims are a significant portion of the population, the overwhelming majority have a negative view of ISIS. Even in Pakistan, the majority view is “Don’t know” rather than “Favorable,” and Pakistan is the exception. Even when you look at the percentages for Muslims only, the vast majority have an unfavorable view of ISIS. [In nations with significant Muslim populations, much disdain for ISIS](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/28 "2015-11-17T22:14:04Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Except ISIS isn’t targeting gays and Jews. They’re targeting other Muslims (you know, the very same people who, according to you, are just as homophobic and anti-Semitic) and “Crusaders”. ISIS is certainly targeting both gays and Jews. Do I really need to give you cites for this? And they often declare the Muslims they target to be apostates, as is takfiri tradition. > [@](#): > > You’re really stuck on that whole “ISIS are just following Islam as it’s taught in the Islamic scriptures” thing, in spite of being repeatedly shown to be wrong about that, aren’t you? Now you are both dodging the discussion and falsely declaring to have already won the debate. Here it is again, so you can have another shot at responding to what I actually have written: [QUOTE=Hank Beecher] That (anti-Semitism and Homophobia) is not something ISIS has to teach, in fact it is one way Muslim communities prep Muslims for recruitment, as do a shared set of religious texts, and an often shared view on their infallibility, in the case of the Koran, and authenticity, in the case of hadith. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > The perverted version that ISIS teaches, perhaps. And you can tell it’s perverted from the way even other devout Muslims practice it by the fact that ISIS has little success recruiting from the already-religious. Those who are already familiar with Islam and live according to its teachings are the ones most likely to reject ISIS recruitment. It’s only among those who are uneducated and unpracticed in Islam that ISIS has the most success. You repeatedly accuse me referring to the one correct Islam, when I have done no such thing. And now it is you that declares ISIS’s Islam to be ‘perverted’, implying that there is one true Islam, namely your’s, that it the correct one. In a viscous bout of irony, you are proclaiming[takfir on the takfiris](http://www.thefridaytimes.com/tft/excommunicating-terrorism/), using the same rhetorical trick on them that they use on their victims before they execute them. Tell me then, if Muslim communities do not, as I claim, prepare the ground that ISIS plants it’s seed in, why does ISIS recruit among Muslims at all? If the homophobia, anti-Semitism, anti-liberal, and anti-Western beliefs that are rampant among Muslims does not pave the way for them, and familiarity with Islam is purely an inoculation against them, wouldn’t ISIS choose non-Muslims over Muslims to recruit? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/29 "2015-11-17T22:17:51Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Just one question that has me stumped, since the recent Muslim terrorist attacks, in Paris. The mastermind behind them was from Belgium (at this point, information is still coming in–but I think we can safely say that). In fact, he came from a Muslim enclave in Belgium, where many Muslims are born, and apparently soon “radicalized” into jihadist attacks. (At this point, I must say, that most Muslims are not at all like this yada yada yada. I say it with a little sarcasm. But it is true, you know.) > > My question is, How do they radicalize people in Europe–esp. western Europe? So, not to take away from yet \*another \*another go at “because Islam bad !!”, but I felt like actually providing my answer to the OP : - freedom of expression is \*\*really \*\*not “severely limited” in France. True, you can technically get fined for Holocaust denial and “inciting racial hatred” and “terrorism apologia”, but in practice these laws are only applied if you’re a high profile personality, do it on live television, publish a whole book about it or something like that. Ordinary people are, by and large, perfectly free to be racist, anti-semitic, homophobic etc… cunts every blessed day of their lives. - the kids targeted by extremists are \*already \*radicalized to a profound extent. They’re angry at all the unofficial (and official) limitations and oppressions that their host countries impose on them. They’re angry because they’re stuck in the shitty neighbourhoods, because they feel condemned to living beneath a glass ceiling (even, hell \*especially \*after pursuing higher education - which BTW is exactly how Gandhi felt in England way back when), because they feel routinely ostracized and marginalized… In the US, kids like that are approached by Bloods and MS 13, or white supremacist groups, or Scientologists etc…, all of which provide them with a sense of pride, of belonging, of being able to do _something_. You know, like torching black churches and shit. And sometimes they just shoot up a school or something. In Europe, it’s religious extremism that seizes that opportunity with young “Arabs”. It’s really that simple. There’s nothing particular about Islam in this regard, save perhaps the modus operandi of the violence and stupidity they’re goaded into. And it’s not gonna get solved by punishment, or putting every Muslim on file and visiting them in the middle of the night or anything like that. You want to solve “the Islamic problem” ? Give Muslims/immigrants an actually equal part in society and its economic/social/cultural/political life instead of “let’s not, say we did and scold them for acting like we haven’t”. Finally : > [@](#): > > And more importantly, Why aren’t they stopped, **long before** it gets to that point? Because we don’t have a Gestapo, and we don’t arrest people for thoughtcrimes (although policies of the last few days, as well as last January, are making me something of a liar there…). The Kouachi brothers who attacked Charlie Hebdo were on a police watchlist and under increased scrutiny already. From what I understand, so were some of the attackers of Saturday. And that’s the extent of what we can reasonably do, barring further data or lawful proof of mischief. \*We \*don’t have a Guantanamo to hold them incommunicado without even a hint of due process, nor any global phone & internet wire tapping initiative 😉 (cheap shot, I know. Still, yanno.). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/30 "2015-11-17T22:23:11Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > This is patently false. Most practicing Muslims, like most ISIS recruits, share a belief that it is their religious duty to follow the commandments laid down in the Koran, and to model their behavior on the example of Mohammed as recorded in Hadith. In addition to this, or indeed as a result of this belief, they share high levels of [homophobia](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/can-we-finally-talk-about_b_828037.html) and of course [anti-Semitism](http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/anti-semitism-international/new-adl-poll-anti-semitic-attitudes-19-countries.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/#.VktPFH6rRhE): What is patently false is wandering into a thread that specifies a discussion of Europe and trying to twist it into an general attack on Islam. Have you any evidence, (other than claims by European Islamophobes), to support the idea that Muslims in Europe\* are generally supporting punishments for apostasy, homosexuality, or other violations of the Qur’an or the Hadiths? Or are you simply attempting to hijack one more thread to promote hatred of Muslims? Go look at the OP. The question–the actual question in the title–is “ **How Do Muslims ‘Radicalize’ Other Muslims In Western Europe?** ” if you have to drag Pakistan or Syria into the discussion, then you are deliberately hijacking the thread. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/31 "2015-11-17T22:28:59Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Tell me then, if Muslim communities do not, as I claim, prepare the ground that ISIS plants it’s seed in, why does ISIS recruit among Muslims at all? If the homophobia, anti-Semitism, anti-liberal, and anti-Western beliefs that are rampant among Muslims does not pave the way for them, and familiarity with Islam is purely an inoculation against them, wouldn’t ISIS choose non-Muslims over Muslims to recruit? This level of disingenuousness is absurd. They are hardly going to target Christians, (who are not being subjected to xenophobic discrimination in Europe)–although they have, actually, gotten a number of Christian-to-Muslim converts to join them. As noted above, the vast majority of the recruits are uneducated in Islam. Daesh approaches them with a version of Islam that appeals to them based on its supposed inclusive nature. Claiming the Islam in Europe is “preparing the ground” for recruits is nonsense, otherwise, Daesh would find its best recruiting from mosques, rather than the disaffected and uneducated. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/32 "2015-11-17T22:36:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And that’s the extent of what we can reasonably do, barring further data or lawful proof of mischief. \*We \*don’t have a Guantanamo to hold them incommunicado without even a hint of due process, nor any global phone & internet wire tapping initiative 😉 (cheap shot, I know. Still, yanno.). Well the France could succumb again to the same instincts as the barbarous savages supporting the torture of[suspected](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/new-poll-finds-majority-of-americans-believe-torture-justified-after-911-attacks/2014/12/16/f6ee1208-847c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html) enemies… ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/33 "2015-11-17T22:41:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > What is patently false is wandering into a thread that specifies a discussion of Europe and trying to twist it into an general attack on Islam. > > Have you any evidence, (other than claims by European Islamophobes), to support the idea that Muslims in Europe\* are generally supporting punishments for apostasy, homosexuality, or other violations of the Qur’an or the Hadiths? Or are you simply attempting to hijack one more thread to promote hatred of Muslims? You are the one hijacking the thread with your implication that I am trying to promote hatred of Muslims. That is not called for. I provided evidence for what I claimed, so I do not know why I should provide evidence for something else, simply because you demand it for whatever diversionary reason. > [@](#): > > Go look at the OP. The question–the actual question in the title–is “ **How Do Muslims ‘Radicalize’ Other Muslims In Western Europe?** ” if you have to drag Pakistan or Syria into the discussion, then you are deliberately hijacking the thread. Why don’t you try responding to post [#9](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18866601&postcount=9), in which I directly refuted your claim that “Most practicing Muslims do not share anything with the Daesh recruits beyond a label of"Muslim.”, provided evidence, and did not mention Pakistan or Syria. My mention of the Pew survey was in response to this: " I strongly contest the idea that the average Muslim is more scrupulous in following his/her religion’s teachings than the average Christian." and since most Muslims live outside of Europe their views are relevant to the question how the _average Muslim_ follows teaching. I note that you have no comment about others bringing into the thread such highly on topic subjects as former governors of Arkansas and African Christian preachers. Yet you loudly object to the mention of\* Syria\*, in a thread about ISIS…go figure. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/34 "2015-11-17T22:55:09Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > In any case, the profile of the Belgians and the French seduced into the path of the DAESH is in majority youth, muslim, who have a history of petty crime or even serious crime and involvement in bad things, feeling they lost their way, **followed by new converts** who were then led into the Salafiste and the Takfiri thought by those promoting the idea it is the true and real and pure way. Indeed, I’m always surprised by the non insignificant number of new converts (of French ancestry, with catholic/non-believer parents, with no crime history, etc…) amongst the people who leave to fight for ISIS/DAESH. It’s quite mystifying that a young man who had no link with Islam, raised in a rather irreligious culture ends up some years later as a bloodthirsty muslim extremist. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/35 "2015-11-17T23:00:10Z")
**clairobscur** , I think it is not very different from the sort of romanticism of action and magical change of the world that attracted youth of such backgrounds to the Left terror groups in the 1970s. but we are being silly talking about the topic of the OP… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/36 "2015-11-17T23:08:18Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > What does homophobia and anti-Semitism (things that, as has been pointed out, are really, _really_ common among Christians as well) have to do with the question in the OP? Indeed. This debate is detracting from the issue discussed. Not liking gays and Jews has few to do with deciding to put your life on the line in Iraq under the orders of people who are widely considered as butchers, so it doesn’t really matter whether or not young Muslims in western Europe are more or less homophobic than old politicians in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/37 "2015-11-17T23:15:38Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > And it is a fact that a major factor in this trend is the partial commonality of belief between ISIS and the average Muslim, including the common source texts and the shared belief in their infallibility and authenticity. Except that the common source and the belief in its infallibility is shared by all the other sincere Muslims who _don’t_ leave their country to fight for DAESH. So, it explains nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/38 "2015-11-17T23:25:44Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Indeed. This debate is detracting from the issue discussed. Not liking gays and Jews has few to do with deciding to put your life on the line in Iraq under the orders of people who are widely considered as butchers You don’t think that preexisting homophobia and antisemitism would be qualities that would make an impressionable youth predisposed to join a group that murders homosexuals and Jews? What next, being racist against blacks doesn’t make someone a more likely recruit of the Klan? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/39 "2015-11-17T23:35:54Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Except that the common source and the belief in its infallibility is shared by all the other sincere Muslims who _don’t_ leave their country to fight for DAESH. So, it explains nothing. This is faulty logic. You have simply shown that the shared belief in question does not _always_ contribute to a Muslim being recruited, not that it _never_ does. There is a lot of white supremacist propaganda around in the US, and it is widely consumed. (At one point David Duke got the majority of votes from white voters, when he ran for governor of Louisiana, IIRC.) Yet the vast majority of those people have never physically attacked a member of a minority. It doesn’t follow that white supremacist ideology is blameless in the rare occasions when they do, simply because of all the times it was digested without leading to violence. ---
**Author:** ![Grsz11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grsz11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grsz11)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788/40 "2015-11-17T23:38:01Z")
In Europe, Muslims live in segregated neighborhoods in major cities. They’re poor, have no opportunities, and get angry and violent. This is exactly the reason for getting them out of refugee camps and into prosperous countries. America Muslims do great. They are better educated and wealthier than the average American. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-muslims-radicalize-other-muslims-in-western-europe/737788.md?page=3)