# How do people end up so poor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398 "2011-09-15T15:44:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/281 "2011-09-23T00:40:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Wow, it’s a Grand Canyon sized chasm… No wider than going from “rice and beans are better than ramen noodles” to “live on rice and beans and nothing else.” ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/282 "2011-09-23T00:41:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What, and make it easier for sex offenders to adopt children? Is that what you want? > > Forgive me if I think the government should protect our children for rapist monsters. That should read “from” rapist monsters. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/283 "2011-09-23T01:04:10Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So what you’re saying is that subjecting children to poverty is a bad thing? Sound like you’re telling poor people they aren’t fit to raise their own children, is that what you’re trying to say? > > Maybe you think the government should remove these children from their homes and raise them in government facilities? Is that what you want? > > Or would you rather a program that takes poor kids and forces rich families to raise them? > > Not cool man, not cool. That was truly dumb. The fact is that almost all poor people in the past ,started out that way. These kids are starting out with everything against them. Few will escape poverty. The old saw about America being a land of opportunity is dead. The biggest predictor of being poor ,is being born to poor parents. Yes there are exceptions and they are getting rarer and rarer. These kids in poverty have an ugly future because the jobs are not coming back. The rich will end as many social programs as possible. It will be a time of unrest. ---
**Author:** ![loshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce73a5/32.png) [@loshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/loshan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/284 "2011-09-23T01:06:39Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What, and make it easier for sex offenders to adopt children? Is that what you want? > > Forgive me if I think the government should protect our children for rapist monsters. How the hell did you get from reforming adoption rules to giving children to sex offenders?😕 That is one massive damned leap you took there. ETA: Too slow on the submit button I see. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/285 "2011-09-23T01:06:52Z")
> [@AbloyProtec](#): > > Holy shit you can’t read. > . . . > Your reading comprehension isn’t too good, is it? I have a feeling this may be related to your current predicament. > . . . > Quit being dense. > . . . > Learn to read. > . . . > Again, get over yourself. . . . Quit undermining anything anyone else says or projects simply because you think he’s won the I HURT pageant. This is “Great Debates,” not “Self puffery through snide remarks toward others.” Make your points without the attitude. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/286 "2011-09-23T01:11:41Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What, and make it easier for sex offenders to adopt children? Is that what you want? > > Forgive me if I think the government should protect our children for rapist monsters. Even ignoring the typo, this comment is so far out of the discussion as to prompt the question, “What thread are you reading?” ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/287 "2011-09-23T01:15:55Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The biggest predictor of being poor ,is being born to poor parents. So what are you trying to say? That poor people make shitty parents? Or that you don’t think poor people should be allowed to raise a family? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/288 "2011-09-23T01:23:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Even ignoring the typo, this comment is so far out of the discussion as to prompt the question, “What thread are you reading?” This one, where saying “rice and beans are better than ramen noodles” becomes “emacknight thinks poor people should live on rice and beans and nothing else.” Where gonzomax can write > [@gonzomax](#): > > Wit of EMCNIGHT > Don’t have a TV > Don’t have internet > Don’t have a car, walk everywhere you can. > Don’t rent furniture > Don’t have kids > 'Don’t smoke > Don’t buy lottery > Don’t let your utilities shut off, then you wont have a reconnection fee. That is so easy . > Don’t get old or sick > Move to North Dakota > Walk to stores . > Turn off the lights and put plastic over windows. > Turn the heat down, that assumes you have it on high. > The imagination and understanding of the lot of the poor, is underwhelming. > Get a technical degree, even though they have a high unemployment rate > Thanks for the deep and thoughtful understanding of the little pepole who just don’t live properly. Where suggesting putting plastic on windows to reduce heating costs means “living in the dark with the heat turned off.” Where pointing out the amount of money people living in poverty waste on gambling, alcohol, and tobacco means you’re a condescending jerk. Welcome back to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/289 "2011-09-23T01:24:32Z")
So, you are aspiring to argue as well as gonzo? OK. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/290 "2011-09-23T01:30:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, you are aspiring to argue as well as gonzo? > > OK. I try, but I can’t seem to find as many random links as he does. Sweet, found one, and I don’t even bother referring to it, I’ll just post the hyperlink > **[The secret war against American workers - Salon.com](https://www.salon.com/2009/03/30/eshelman/)** > > The deepening recession is giving some businesses the excuse to fire people they'd have had to keep on in better conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Novealphtang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac8455/32.png) [@Novealphtang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novealphtang)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/291 "2011-09-23T01:56:27Z")
There are no jobs anymore for people even with collge degrees-example there is an overflow of young people with law and architecture degrees. The statistic you are seeing is caused by people not having any income whatsoever. These people live in rent controlled houses,get food stamps, are generally in areas with major crime or drug problems, and are stuck. If you have a job you don’t know this-but a job at WalMart is very desirable in many areas now. I live in a supposedly well off state with supposedly efficient govt. However,there is the lowest number of people under 35 in the entire country. -this means there are no jobs being created- If you drive 10 minutes out of the wealthy nice areas you start to see obese people, people in very shabby clothes, more cops, lots and lots of trailer homes etc. Also,if you drive at night it can be dangerous due to drunk drivers. It turns out in these areas the govt is paying for a lot. Another interesting fact is that illegal marijuana is keeping a huge section of the state from destitution. We have legal medical pot now,but unlike other states there was no announcement because they don’t want to affect the price. Another interesting fact about this areas is it is suer hyper liberal, yet there are open gun laws,no license needed, if you look inti the economy it turns out a huge other section of the state is supported by selling guns that go over state lines,the state supplying most of the guns found in crime and other busts over state lines. So, I dont know if you are younger or just have been very well of and not encountered this-but especially within the last 10 years, there are massive amounts of people with 0% chance of even attaining a job. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/292 "2011-09-23T17:12:19Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, you are aspiring to argue as well as gonzo? > > OK. I thought personal remarks were bannable. that was poorly disguised and you should be ashamed of yourself as a moderator. How do you presume to correct other people when you can be as petty as that? I suppose in moderator land personal remarks are OK. But you surely are making a personal comment after chastising others for the same thing. You should have a one moth hiatus for that one. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/293 "2011-09-23T17:31:05Z")
OK. I have put my moth on hiatus until the end of Lepidoptera season. No one gets banned for personal remarks. I tend to discourage personal comments that lead to feuds and interfere with the discussion, but a one-liner comparing the quality of your posts to that of another poster is not quite going to do that. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![papergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/aca169/32.png) [@papergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/papergirl)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/294 "2011-09-23T21:49:42Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So what are you trying to say? That poor people make shitty parents? Or that you don’t think poor people should be allowed to raise a family? Have you been reading **gonzomax** ’s posts? Because I’m not getting this impression at all from what he’s posted here. What’d I miss? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/295 "2011-09-24T00:50:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > OK. I have put my moth on hiatus until the end of Lepidoptera season. > > No one gets banned for personal remarks. I tend to discourage personal comments that lead to feuds and interfere with the discussion, but a one-liner comparing the quality of your posts to that of another poster is not quite going to do that. > > Sorry. Yes it is. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/296 "2011-09-24T14:53:38Z")
\*\*loshan \*\* and **Broomstick** , I have a question I’m hoping you’ll answer. You both are in similar situations having been middle class, lost your jobs, and now struggle to live off about $13k a year. But you have both managed to make things work. Obviously it’s not ideal, or desirable. If a neighbour/friend/co-worker of yours was making $20k a year, but in worse shape financially, how would you explain that? (ie unable to make ends meet) I’ve read enough of both of your posts to confidently assume if you suddenly received a windfall of $7000\*, or earned an extra $583 per month, you would be significantly better off. And I’m also confident that at the end of the month, you’d still have some of that money left. My guess is that you’d use a small amount of it for luxury, a bit of entertainment, something pleasurable. But most of it would be invested. No not in the stock market, but in your lives to make things better. Replacing drafty windows, upgrading a furnace, expanding your grow-up. And of those investments my guess is that they’d be well thought out. You probably wouldn’t run off and buy a $7000 car, because you know a car has expenses that go along with it. It’s unlikely that you’d run out and \*lease \*a brand new car at $583 per month. I think it’s very unlikely that you’d sink it all into a new apartment that costs an additional $583 per month. Lastly, I’m quite confident that you’d be reluctant to spend it all, probably putting away a sizable chunk for future emergencies. You both know income isn’t guaranteed so money would be set aside in case of future lost income. So how do you explain people making a lot more money than you, but it worse shape financially? \*Ignore for sake of argument any benefits that might be clawed back ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/297 "2011-09-24T14:59:43Z")
> [@Novealphtang](#): > > There are no jobs anymore for people even with collge degrees None? Zero? Zilch? Do you have a cite that shows that? Here is at least one in Philadelphia [http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/jjj/](http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/jjj/) > [@Novealphtang](#): > > there are massive amounts of people with 0% chance of even attaining a job. 0% is very low, do you have anything that backs up that claim? ---
**Author:** ![AbloyProtec](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@AbloyProtec](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbloyProtec)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/298 "2011-09-24T16:10:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So you paid for a degree you’ve never used? Wow, _that_ was an amazingly useful use of your money. Guess you aren’t perfect all the time, then. I enjoy coding, I enjoy programming. I still do it today, usually building e-commerce scripts for friends or friends-of-friends or cousins I never knew I had. It’s fun. College taught me there is a lot more to building and coding applications/programs than just the code itself. I may use it one day; I haven’t ruled it out. The economy certainly hasn’t, either, despite what you may believe. It’s not like I haven’t kept my skills current. I have a fairly large portfolio that I can show any employer. I value the degree; I value my time at college away from home and on my own. Best investment I ever made. > [@](#): > > So… what’s stopping someone from the third world getting licensed here, in your state, then moving back home where the cost of living is so much lower while getting work in the US that pays so much more than what would be available locally? Again, it’s a specialized skilled trade, as in I use my hands and head. Mainly my head but the hands come through every once in a while. This sort of work, like any trade (plumbing, HVAC, welding, electrician) cannot be outsourced - period. End of discussion. You cannot terminate junction boxes from India, etc. > [@](#): > > Architectural firms are already doing things of that sort. I’m not an architect. > [@](#): > > I have a friend who’s a civil engineer. About three years ago local municipalities stopped calling him to review and approve building plans. Turns out there are guys in India licensed as US civil engineers. The local cities scan the plans, e-mail them to India, and get the guys there to say yay or nay for a fraction of the cost of using US people. Not a civil engineer, not anything remotely close. > [@](#): > > Again – what makes you think you’re immune? Because a skilled trade requires hands on work. Could you outsource my desk work? Well, theoretically, but given the relationship between my hands on work and my desk work, it would absolutely never become feasible. For example, I’m about to undertake a 3 year, $1.2 million dollar project at the hospital that I will be designing, implementing, and maintaining all on my own. That $1.2 million is hardware costs, they aren’t factoring in my labor/time which is already calculated in the payroll budget. There is no way, no way at all, that anyone could ever outsource such a project to India or an independent contractor in our city to complete the job at anywhere as low as the cost I will be doing it for my company. None. Can you imagine the labor costs a project that will require 3 years of 40 hour weeks and $1.2 million in hardware costs? I gaurantee it won’t be any less than my $65,000 annual salary. I’d bet my life on it. By my math, you’d have to get someone over here from India (assuming they’re already qualified to get licensed because per state law, they can’t perform the work unless they are), and you’d have to charge my employer roughly $10.42 an hour for your labor costs. That’s what any company (overseas or not) would have to be fine with getting paid an hour in order to break even with my costs. Good luck with that. > [@](#): > > And take imitrex reguarly for migraines. Let’s see… useless college degree (why didn’t you change your major to something useful? Lucrative?)… bad car accident with permanent effects… seems you do get bad luck periodically after all. Don’t get cocky. Again, the degree is not useless. I still maintain it with my freelance work. My skills are current. If I break my legs, I can still code from the wheel chair. My degree is my fallback, if nothing else. I didn’t change my degree because I started an apprenticeship my 2nd year in college. I was effectively getting training in two career paths. One I paid for, one paid me. Do you realize how flexible I am with regards to a job right now? > [@](#): > > And yet you criticize me for doing an apprenticeship now? Well, I don’t have mommy and daddy to supplement my allowance during the low-wage years of learning a new trade. AND I have to support another human being in addition to myself. Mommy and daddy didn’t help me either. I was living on my own dime when I started an apprenticeship while being a full time student and making $0.50 over minimum wage in 2007 ($7.00 an hour! Woo hoo!). Got to support another person? Oh well. Your choice. > [@](#): > > And really – you knew software engineering “wasn’t the way to go” your FIRST year of college, but you still got your degree in it? Dude, why didn’t you change majors? Or go to a trade school? Read above. > [@](#): > > Right – the usual conclusion that if you’re poor you’re not doing anything. As it happens, I’m working for money as much as possible, looking for more work, AND learning new skills at the same time. Doesn’t actually leave much time for anything else. Seem to have plenty of time to post on the Straight Dope forums. > [@](#): > > We have welders looking for work around here, there aren’t enough welding jobs to go around in my region. Like I said, don’t get cocky. You’re assuming things are the same everywhere, and they’re not. That demand for this or that is the same everywhere, and it’s not. So move? Re-locate? You do realize that jobs increase exponentially with population, correct? > [@](#): > > I’ve never had to wake up at 3am for a construction job. Sure, it’s hard work, but I’m not afraid to work hard. Are you? Or are you lazy? You’re a young, healthy man, right? Why can’t you do the same work as a middle-aged woman? Why would I work harder for less money than my current job? You’re obviously struggling with the wages and I know what they make in my area ($10-15 an hour, starting). Sorry, insulting my manhood isn’t enough reason to drop a lucrative job to prove a point. > [@](#): > > Well, sure – he knows you’ll work for nearly nothing. Why shouldn’t he stay in contact with a chump who would sell a patent for $1? As I stated previously, he’s offered a position with the company that paid quite well. And, as stated previously, I’m only interested in relocating **after** my fiance has completed her doctorate program (which won’t be for another 5 years). She gets paid $29,000 to go to school (a very good school) and perform occassional research. We’re not jeopardizing that deal so I can make a bit more money. > [@](#): > > I’m posting this on my lunch break – why do you assume I’m UNemployed? I’m not, and haven’t been for some time. But like I said, apprentice wages aren’t very much, and there’s a lack of work around here that has nothing to do with how hard someone looks for work. Your lunch break must extend throughout the afternoon. Your post times have been all over the time spectrum, haha. > [@](#): > > You have no idea how hard it is to pull that off – someone in a car accident just after a diagnosis of something awful is assumed to be fraud by an insurance company until proven otherwise. How do I know this? I used to work for the insurance industry. You think you’re the first one to come up with that? A boy can hope. > [@](#): > > Quit being bad at math. If I was really three times your age I’d be comfortably retired – I do have an actual pension waiting for me, but can’t collect until 65. Meanwhile, I have to pay the rent and buy food. Oh ok, then what? 2 1/2 times? > [@](#): > > Either you failed to disclose that problem, in which case if you tried to use that insurance you’d be accused of fraud, or the policy you bought was a joke. Neither. In fact, I could have got it for substantially less had I not done the honest and right thing and told them. > [@](#): > > That’s assuming Let’s do this! > [@](#): > > 1. She continues to be your fiancee Fingers crossed! > [@](#): > > 1. You get married (haven’t heard of employer insurance that covers non-related people, at least not heterosexual couples) Typically a proposal is the first step in that process. A yes is the second. So far, I’m off to a good start! > [@](#): > > 1. The insurance her employer offers covers dependents/family members (not all do) Ohhh, and they do! > [@](#): > > 1. That insurance doesn’t manage to impose exclusions on you. Being the highly cautious and thorough individual I am, I went with her to meet with the insurance policy representative. I proposed the scenario, “What if I got on her plan with my injury?” After running through the specifics, I was told, “That wouldn’t be a problem at all.” I read through the paperwork just to be sure. I’m good to go! > [@](#): > > I used to work for the health insurance industry. Did you bother to read what I wrote? Yes. > [@](#): > > If you paid $132.08 for a _one month_ insurance policy I have to wonder what the hell was covered. But hey, don’t take my word for it, insurance agent **pbbth** has already weighed in on the subject in post #263. Catastrophic coverage! I don’t get sick, ma’am. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/299 "2011-09-24T16:58:00Z")
Going back to ‘there are no jobs’, [here](http://www.economist.com/node/21528434) is a link from the Sept. 10th Economist: > [@](#): > > Even in these difficult economic times talent is in short supply and the world’s leading companies are competing fiercely for it. In America unfilled vacancies have risen over the past couple of years despite high unemployment. According to Manpower’s latest annual survey, 34% of employers worldwide say they are having trouble filling jobs, with technicians, salespeople, skilled trades workers and engineers the hardest to find (see chart 3). Chart 3 is all the way at the bottom of the link. The gist is that even with so many unemployed people, companies (worldwide) are having a hard time finding qualified people to hire. I’d take it with a grain of salt- the report helpfully points out how well investment bankers are doing- but a quick look at what categories of jobs are going unfilled reveals that their point applies across the spectrum. Technicians, sales reps, skilled trades, accouting, IT- companies are struggling to fill all these positions. So, why are people so poor? In some cases anyway it is that they aren’t qualified. ---
**Author:** ![AbloyProtec](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@AbloyProtec](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbloyProtec)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398/300 "2011-09-24T17:04:36Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Going back to ‘there are no jobs’, [here](http://www.economist.com/node/21528434) is a link from the Sept. 10th Economist: > > Chart 3 is all the way at the bottom of the link. The gist is that even with so many unemployed people, companies (worldwide) are having a hard time finding qualified people to hire. I’d take it with a grain of salt- the report helpfully points out how well investment bankers are doing- but a quick look at what categories of jobs are going unfilled reveals that their point applies across the spectrum. Technicians, sales reps, skilled trades, accouting, IT- companies are struggling to fill all these positions. > > So, why are people so poor? In some cases anyway it is that they aren’t qualified. Skilled trades, ah. Thanks for the link. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-end-up-so-poor/596398.md?page=16)