America is one of the least socially mobile of the industrialized nations.
“Producer class”? Yeah, all those people slaving away in factories or on farms or in offices aren’t producing anything at all. It’s the rich guys who live off them who are the “producers”. :rolleyes:
This is what I did, and there is no question I would be poorer today had I not taken that route. But don’t underestimate either the difficulty of this path or the selectivity of the modern military. They demand strong, healthy, drug free high school graduates with a minimal police record who don’t have an issue with using guns and force. A lot of poor people don’t fall into this category due to health, education, legal and/or political reasons.
Missed the edit window.
Reminds me of a conversation I have every so often with my wife, who has a masters and a good corporate job.
Mrs.: I should have joined the military straight out of high school. I’d be a Gulf War veteran, I wouldn’t have these student loans, and it probably would have helped me get hired.
Me: And you could have got Gulf War syndrome, been backed over by a tank, or just generally got your ass shot off. Plus you’d be 4 years behind in your career track.
Different countries and all that, but 40 years ago, to become a bank teller in Spain you needed to have your “bachillerato elemental” (obtained at 14 if you’d done well) and know someone who knew someone. Nowadays you need a 4-year college degree (knowing someone only works if the someone is from VP on up). I understand similar changes have taken place in many countries.
I doubt I would have been eligible to any military in the world, but I’m also one of those people who at 17 were taking care of the family. I wasn’t paying for our food (nobody would have given me a job, due to perception of my family as “rich”, which we never were), but I was taking care of two depressed parents (one of them bedridden) and two little brothers on the sole income of my father’s unemployment benefits. If my country had considered me eligible for our military, signing up would have felt like abandoning ship and then some.
And the odds are the military won’t want them. I think only the army allows 40 year olds, and even then it is surprisingly difficult to get in.
Maybe the idea of getting their brains blown out doesn’t appeal to them?
Or they have moral problems killing other poor people for the benefit of rich people, which is much of what the military does.
Yeah, opportunity cost plays a huge part in your overall life situation.
My sister-in-law is, by my standards, obscenely wealthy. She and her husband are in the foreign service and they earn excellent paychecks with excellent benefits and spend most of their time living in paid for housing with government supplied vehicles and such so they don’t have to spend much of their own money for anything. She also spent the last 8 years living in places like Bangladesh, Sierra Leone, and Baghdad. She has to live in places with armored pantries so she could have a safe place to stay in the event of an attack. She spent a year in Iraq working in buildings with no air conditioning in the 125 degree heat. She got dengue fever at one point. She and her husband go months at a time without seeing family or friends and she missed her grandmother’s funeral because she was in another country.
You know who she is jealous of? My husband and I. We don’t have nearly as much money as she does and we have bigger financial problems than she will ever know but we see her mother regularly and have access to pizza and burgers. We are having a baby which is something she just can’t do yet because she is living in places where that isn’t a safe choice. We have regular TV and access to movie theaters and we don’t worry about being shot at when we leave the house. Financially she is much better off and she understands what she gave up to make that money but it is a huge cost to pay for financial security.
You know, I’m betting you know better than this. I’ve run into that “I started in the mail room” crap so many times over so many years that it’s ridiculous. It’s always some guy who wants to tell me his rags-to-riches story as proof that anyone can rise to the top despite the circumstances of their birth, and it’s always BS.
William Morris, where I believe Diller started his career, made *all *new employees start in the mail room. All new employees on the management track, that is. It’s actually a good way to learn how information flows through a company (or it was before the computer boom, anyway). Some guy hired through an employment agency to actually do the work in the mail room is never going to get out of the mail room. I’m betting Diller got the job through some connection, and didn’t stay in the mail room very long.
They’ll also give you orders all day long ; force you to live by arbitrary, often quite retarded rules ; make you live in the same room as 30 other people, half of which you’re going to hatehatehate ; they’ll send you to the worst goddamn places on Earth ; they’ll let you say goodbye to your girlfriend (Jody’s got her covered though. In more ways than one) ; and then there’s the little matter of, y’know, killing people for a living. Or helping other people kill people for a living, which in a way is even worse.
Oh, and who could forget: as an enlisted, you get paid jack fuck all, and will consistently be paid jack fuck all throughout your career even if you decide to be a lifer for some unfathomable reason.
Joining the military is quite possibly the most stupid decision anyone could ever make. You want to get shot at for chump change, be a cop. The suck’s comparable, but you get AC and fewer moral quandaries.
In any economy, some people have to be the lowest-earning. It is mathematically impossible for everyone to earn above the average wage.
Well, it is an amazingly attractive option for some people - one of my nephews joined the army because there are pretty much no jobs at all where he lives (Hull, NE England). Well, not many livable jobs for a physically-fit, hard-working man who just isn’t very good academically. ‘Economic conscription’ is alive and well.
I also considered joining up when I was younger, but, after looking into it further, realised that my asthma would have meant that I would have failed basic training. My asthma got better as I got older (as it often does) but by then I was a single parent of a child. Joining up would have meant sending my daughter to live with her grandparents and hardly seeing her.
It’s not actually an option for lots of people.
Sometimes people also stay poor because, while the difference between them and the next man who gets that promotion is very small, it’s still out of their reach. Like buying good suits for that business job, getting a $500 loan from their parents as a downpayment on a car so that they can get to where the jobs are, paying for the living costs that a student loan doesn’t cover. It’s a small amount of money that can make a huge difference to the jump between really poor and doing OK.
Some of my acquaintances years ago said to me ‘look at Paul! He started with nothing, and is now a self-made millionaire.’ Turned out that they actually meant that his parents loaned him £10,000 interest-free to start his business and another several thousand as the downpayment on his house, which he was lucky enough to buy at just the right time. Those acquaintances thought that was nothing.
He worked hard and was a very good businessman, but without that starting boost he wouldn’t have got started.
Thanks for the nice list of exceptions that prove the rule. When come back, bring argument.
I agree generally that if it’s not common to attain X within your circle, that very unfamiliarity with the concept itself could end up being your biggest barrier. That can happen at every level though. My parents’ generation were the first to go to college. Their generally-non-college-educated parents were within close enough to the middle class that college was visible. What wasn’t visible was anything as sophisticated as “planning a career,” so I’m sure my parents did not achieve the upper middle class success they could have if they’d had a career plan beyond reading the want ads and writing an application letter explaining their qualifications (nothing as hifalutin as a resume).
By my generation it was clear we were “supposed to” go to college, and there was a pretty clear expectation that that might lead to focusing on a particular profession and perhaps getting an appropriate graduate degree to further that plan. But my parents were pretty unsophisticated when it came to anything like comparing colleges, burnishing my resume with “extracurriculars,” taking prep classes for standardized tests, so I’m sure I had comparatively fewer and less prestigious options than many of the people I went to high school with. And even when I was in school, the idea of internships or study abroad or any number of other things that could have broadened my experience but also my marketability/income potential was just something I’d never heard of and so missed out on.
None of this is a personal sob story at all, just the basis for my notion that there is fairly widespread if gradual/imperfect upward mobility. I’d not be shocked if most (not all) in this thread would tell a similar story of when people in your family began getting advanced educations, better jobs, etc. with a generational trend toward improvement in financial status.
To Bump - money isn’t everything, for many it isn’t even the thing.
I think you are severely discounting location. In much of the US that are non-urban/suburban the cost of living is much lower. So, the number of people living comfortably making <$25,000 would have to include these folks.
Conversely, in these same areas often there are no well paying jobs - none. Sure, there’s the local mechanic, and maybe some local coffee shop or bar, the beautician, maybe a school with teachers and bus drivers. But there are not companies that employ teams of accountants and managers and engineers, etc. A lot of people live in these less populated parts of the country - where jobs are very far away.
There is another category that IMHO muddies up your numbers - independent contractors, sole proprietors, small business owners (with no employees other than themself), etc. Many of these that I know about understand how to “make money” without “earning money”. They take in well in excess of $25,000 a year, but due to business expenses and various legitimate and not-so-legitimate methods report income of far less than $25,000 a year. They are counted in your numbers too. So, they may not be poor (although some definitely are).
Actually, I support two people on that.
I also hasten to add that due to my prior job in the middle class I acquired two good vehicles which are still working reliably, I have excellent credit, no debt, and a stack of assets such as a good computer system, lots of good clothing, etc. that makes things much better for us than maybe for some other very poor people. Unfortunately, some of those assets are wearing out (like clothes) but aside from rent, food, and toilet paper I have little need to actually buy things. This makes a huge difference.
Yeah, it would have been a nice option, but it was forever cut off for me due to my vision. A surprising number of people can’t pass the physical for rather common and, in civilian life, not particularly disabling issues.
And you can do all of that on twelve dollars? Not twelve-thousand?
Cop might be a better solution. They sure as hell don’t get chump change in NJ. Personally I think they’re ludicrously overpaid whiners who only get away with because the pols are too cowardly to tell them off.
My brother is 37 years old. He lives at home with my parents and makes ten bucks an hour. He tried to join the army. They wouldn’t have him. Same thing with a few other jobs including TSA. Once my parents pass on I expect I will have to supervise him or even possibly provide him with a room in my house because he has no common sense. Some people are just not mentally capable of earning much. I’m fine with providing safety nets so they can eat, get health care and a roof over their heads.
I make a little under 25k a year. I have a bachelors degree that 5-10 years ago probably would’ve offered me chances to be making 40-60k a year a few years out of college. But once the recession hit a lot of full time jobs with benefits were eliminated and replaced by part time temp jobs (and that is for those of us who are lucky, many are unemployed), and that is what I am doing right now. I have looked around for other jobs but they are more of the same (part time temp jobs). My hourly wage isn’t bad, but due to being part time I am not making enough money to live with dignity and security.
Some of it is my fault though. I could look harder for a better job than I do. But a lot is just the restructuring of the economy. The growth of service sector work, the death of good paying blue collar jobs, the fact that professional class jobs that used to offer job security and high wages (professor, lawyer, scientist, engineer, IT professional) have been replaced by contract jobs that offer lower wages and less security, competition from globalization, etc.
I’m surprised it is only 25% who make less than 25k a year since median hourly wage in the US is $16.27/hr, which works out to roughly 33k a year. I’m guessing you meant household income, not personal.
The fiance of a friend works in management at a fast food place, he makes $9.25/hr after 10 years experience. I don’t know if that is common in managers in fast food, but I wouldn’t be surprised. He works a 35-40 hour workweek, but I have heard the salaried ones work 60-80 hours a week.
Even if you plan and avoid some of the major pitfalls of poverty (check cashing joints that charge 400% interest, rent to own stores, credit card debt) you still likely owe interest on student loans, car loans, house loans, etc since you can’t buy those things outright. A well off person will have those things paid off and their money will be earning interest instead.
So there is that too. I wonder how much the average poor, working class and middle class person pays in interest on debt per year (student loans, credit cards, car loans, home loans, etc). I would wager several thousand per household.