# How do people feel about Jeff Flake speaking out against Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 25, 2017, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783 "2017-10-25T04:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/61 "2017-10-25T23:20:16Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Also, Trump is not someone who arose out of nowhere. Decades of right wing propaganda designed to make GOP voters angry, misinformed and scared created Trump and his voters. Trump, like his voters, watches fox news all day and gets more and more angry and scared. Flake makes no mention of how he and his party have worked for decades to create this monster that, now that it is turning on them, they are starting to say ‘enough’. It was time to say enough years ago. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I agree with this, it is the heart of the problem. I’m glad he finally spoke out, but he did this after deciding not to run for re-election, not showing the courage he should have a long time ago. Corker and McCain are in the same boat, the horses are already out of the barn, and they helped open the barn doors. > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > So…let’s start working on a time machine for Sen. Flake? > > You said he didn’t speak up until this week, I’m just pointing out that that’s not true. I was responding to a portion of the OP that I quoted, and did not refer to anything he said earlier. The subject was his speech this week that he made after deciding he would not run again. I didn’t say anywhere that he didn’t speak up at all until this week. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/62 "2017-10-25T23:21:56Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Let me congratulate you on your new purchase of the “time machine” argumentative trope, but I need to point out that we don’t need to break the universe to point out that Flake’s timing is transparently self-serving and not particularly courageous. Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/63 "2017-10-26T00:13:15Z")
If he’s not going to run again, then I don’t see what he’s doing as a PR move. What PR do you need if you’re retiring? If he’s going to run for local office, it would seem to be a sacrifice. So, while I think it sucks that only Republicans who aren’t running for reelection will condemn Trump, I give him props for saying it. (I guess it could be PR for a business job, but that would mean that business in Arizona are looking for people with the balls to stand up for Trump. And that’s a good sign.) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/64 "2017-10-26T01:48:52Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > I > Flipping the Senate would ensure that the Russia investigation is pursued to its bitter ends. It would put a halt to some of more egregious of Donald’s appointments. It would (not incidentally) help prevent stupid money being wasted on shit like Donald’s Wall. It might lead to investigations with teeth about why Ryan Zinke’s pal’s two-man company was selected to repair Puerto Rico. Hell - it might lead to actually repair Puerto Rico! It would slow down the effort to sell off national monuments. It wouldn’t be enough, without the House, but it would be start - which Jeff Flake’s speechifying is not. I hope, but who knows anymore. The dems didn’t really investigate the banks who collapsed the economy, or bring them to justice. Torture was hand waved away, as was massive spying. Probably because they were complicit in all these crimes. Either way, I don’t know. I’d like to believe the dems, if they win congress, will start investigating Trump with the same fervor that the GOP has investigated Obama and the Clintons. But I’ll wait and see. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/65 "2017-10-26T01:52:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > His speech this week was after his decision. It doesn’t matter though, he didn’t speak up years ago when the rock started rolling down the hill, or when it picked up speed, or when it began to dislodge other rocks. When it became an avalanche he began to speak up far too late warn the people in the town at the bottom of the hill. Mitt Romney, John Kasich, etc spoke out early. I give them credit for that. I’m glad Corker, McCain, Flake, etc. are speaking out. But they are only speaking out after their legislative agenda is stalled, and after deciding they either didn’t want to run for re-election, or couldn’t win re-election. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/66 "2017-10-26T05:52:05Z")
Strikes me as a “You can’t fire me! I quit!!!” Kind of move. Flake was going to lose in the primary and this is him doing a sort of rage quit. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/67 "2017-10-26T12:52:29Z")
Its a long time until the primary and it is possible he wouldn’t lose. He could also run as an independent, and he might win there in a general depending on who the other candidates are. Its also possible that he and his family is facing a lot of threats given his book and this fight just isn’t worth it on a personal level any longer. It cannot be satisfying to be a Senator in a party with majorities in both houses and a President and not make any progress on your agenda (except getting a SC Justice - the one thing I DIDN’T want the GOP to get) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/68 "2017-10-26T12:57:56Z")
This thread merely confirms what I already knew: most liberals would hate a President Romney or Jeb or Rubio as much as they hate Trump. Liberals do not regard Trump as unique or as an aberration- they regard Trump as the quintessential Republican, and see him as only marginally more evil than the “normal” conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/69 "2017-10-26T13:22:51Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Liberals do not regard Trump as unique or as an aberration- they regard Trump as the quintessential Republican What’s this “liberals” stuff? We’re only talking about Flake because he’s nearly unique among the conservative side in saying “Hey, maybe this guy ain’t right”. Trump IS the quintessential Republican because the GOP has become the Party of Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/70 "2017-10-26T13:30:22Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > This thread merely confirms what I already knew: most liberals would hate a President Romney or Jeb or Rubio as much as they hate Trump. No kidding. Not to mention the pervasive opinion in this thread that the only possible person of principle is one who agrees with one’s own political views. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/71 "2017-10-26T13:38:26Z")
If it comforts you to think that, then think that. It won’t change reality, though. Speaking of views and principle, which you did, do you agree with Trump’s views and think they are as principled as your own? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/72 "2017-10-26T13:38:32Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > This thread merely confirms what I already knew: most liberals would hate a President Romney or Jeb or Rubio as much as they hate Trump. > > Liberals do not regard Trump as unique or as an aberration- they regard Trump as the quintessential Republican, and see him as only marginally more evil than the “normal” conservatives. This is one the most ridiculous, widest-sweeping and poorly-based generalizations I’ve read on the Straight Dope recently. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/73 "2017-10-26T14:44:51Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > This thread merely confirms what I already knew: most liberals would hate a President Romney or Jeb or Rubio as much as they hate Trump. > > Liberals do not regard Trump as unique or as an aberration- they regard Trump as the quintessential Republican, and see him as only marginally more evil than the “normal” conservatives. I would most certainly dislike Jeb or Rubio or Romney’s policies and ideas and actions because their party’s ideas are awful but I wouldn’t think they were garbage people. Trump is a garbage person. That said, Trump is not aberration. He’s the natural result of the GOP’s evolution. For decades they have fostered mistrust of institutions, mistrust of minorities and worship of wealth for political ends. Trump sprung from that well and they can’t put him back. And guess what? He’s still very popular with the party. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/74 "2017-10-26T22:07:05Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > This thread merely confirms what I already knew: most liberals would hate a President Romney or Jeb or Rubio as much as they hate Trump. What leads you to say that? I and virtually every liberal I know do not feel that way. Would we dislike Romney, Jeb or Rubio as president? Yes. I wouldn’t like their policy ideas. However they are not authoritarian, white nationalist, tied to a foreign government they are likely in service of, incompetent, mentally ill, belligerent, unstable, remorselessly criminal, etc. the way Trump is. Also Jeb, Rubio, Romney, etc. would not pave the way for the next person who is all those things but even worse. > [@astorian](#): > > Liberals do not regard Trump as unique or as an aberration- they regard Trump as the quintessential Republican, and see him as only marginally more evil than the “normal” conservatives. Historically, the politicians elected to the GOP were more sane and rational than their base. Trump on the other hand is a living embodiment of the core base of the GOP. The way he watches fox news constantly. The anger, fear and bigotry. The dissection from reality and living in a fact free bubble. So is Trump as bad as about 1/3-1/2 of GOP voters? Yes, actually worse (most people in the GOP base I know personally have functioning morals and critical thinking skills outside of politics, although they lose these abilities when politics comes up. Trump has none of these things in any area). I wish Rubio or Romney were president. I wouldn’t have to care about politics as much if that were true. ---
**Author:** ![Annoying\_Buzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Annoying\_Buzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoying_Buzz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/75 "2017-10-27T05:49:24Z")
My enthusiasm for Flake, on a scale of 1 to 10: Speaking against Trump to complain about his attitude and behavior? 1-2 Speaking against Trump and his GOP supporters to protest official measures he’s advocating? 4-5 Actually voting against said measures? 9-10 So far, Flake’s still firmly in “wake me when it actually means something” territory. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/76 "2017-10-27T16:12:31Z")
> [@Annoying\_Buzz](#): > > My enthusiasm for Flake, on a scale of 1 to 10: > > Speaking against Trump to complain about his attitude and behavior? 1-2 > Speaking against Trump and his GOP supporters to protest official measures he’s advocating? 4-5 > Actually voting against said measures? 9-10 > > So far, Flake’s still firmly in “wake me when it actually means something” territory. Specify- which measures that Flake, in principle, SHOULD have voted against has he voted for? Should he have voted against Neil Gorsuch? Against tax cut proposals? I don’t like Trump at all, but if I were in the Senate, I would not automatically vote against EVERY Trump proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/77 "2017-10-27T18:50:11Z")
It’s not his proposals or bills per se (although that is part of it). He could break ranks with the GOP on investigations of the White House. The Russia collusion (which is technically “being investigated” but they are dragging their feet and just hoping it goes away), this crazy and disgusting Whitefish deal, many things. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/78 "2017-10-28T15:54:15Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > It’s not his proposals or bills per se (although that is part of it). He could break ranks with the GOP on investigations of the White House. The Russia collusion (which is technically “being investigated” but they are dragging their feet and just hoping it goes away), this crazy and disgusting Whitefish deal, many things. Which “part of it”? What objectionable legislation has Flake voted for that a principled conservative should have voted against? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783/79 "2017-10-29T08:32:14Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > It really is two things you’re pissed at here: conservative ideology AND Donald Trump. You can be a conservative AND still think Donald Trump is a reckless, pig-ignorant, boorish embarrassment. Indeed, if you’re a conservative, you not only CAN, you MUST. To not recognize and acknowledge such truths about the America-hating fuckstick befouling the Oval Office marks one not as a conservative, but as a radical reactionary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-feel-about-jeff-flake-speaking-out-against-trump/799783.md?page=3)