# How do people know their (or others) specific ethnicity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 15, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183 "2019-03-15T14:01:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/61 "2019-03-18T13:34:14Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > For some of us living in Europe (England- hang on- _checks_ yup, still Europe today), ‘researching our family tree’ is pretty simple. My Mum’s side of the family lived in one place, handing down one farm to the oldest son for hundred of years, and most of my ancestors from that side for at least 5 or 6 generations are buried in the local graveyard. I can do hundreds of years of genealogy research with a 20 minute stroll in there. I was thinking about that. My grand-mother had made a genealogical tree on her side, up to 1601, and nearly everyone on that tree lived around the same place. (My brother tested his dna a few months ago and it was pretty funny to see the big focus on the middle on France which is indeed where we come from) ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/62 "2019-03-18T14:23:36Z")
At least seven of my eight great-grandparents were born in the U.S. (the remaining one is unknown), which means I have to go back to the middle of the nineteenth century to find an ancestor born overseas. When those six surnames (my grandfather’s parents had the same surname) are traced back, I get origins in England, Germany, Scotland, and France (via Louisiana). A couple origins I don’t know (Evans, Ramsey), and the unknown great-grandfather I’ve always suspected was Irish, though I have no evidence for that. So I’m definitely American Mutt, but it’s mostly European. Since a couple branches came from the South it’s possible I have some African ancestry, but I’ll likely never find documentation of that. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/63 "2019-03-18T15:20:22Z")
Yes, I bought a copy (on CD) of the transcribed parish registers from the area of England where my family is from. Unfortunately, there were no serious records kept until after 1500 (except, I imagine, nobility). it only got serious in the 1600’s, when the Church of England was tasked with recording births, marriages, and deaths; with an interruption for a few decades when the Puritans called the shots. Plus, some parish registers are lost or burned in fires… So there’s a limit what records are available for us peons. I can find a record for someone about 1600, who might (due to name and date) be an aunt and sister to one of my ancestors. During the Cromwell rule, there are no records, but the persons born then are listed as parents of someone born after the restoration… and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/64 "2019-03-18T23:18:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’m a little baffled by how you wouldn’t know. Were you adopted? I’m baffled by people who do. My father was adopted. Going back before my own parents, paternity may be uncertain, secret adoptions happen, people lie during the immigration process or pass once they enter the country as something other than something that is discriminated against (which has included in the past Irish, German, Jewish, Italian, Slavic, Roma). African Americans descended from slaves almost certainly have some DNA of their former masters - not to mention Africa is a big place with hundreds of its own ethnicities in it - and that ethnic history is usually lost. Going back to the old country - my mother’s family came from a part of what is now Germany that has not always been Germany. Even my son, adopted from South Korea, is thought by other Koreans to have as much Chinese as Korean in him given his features and birthname. I’m really confused how anyone in the U.S. knows their ethnicity with any certainty at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/65 "2019-03-18T23:22:52Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > I’m baffled as well. > > Ethnicity is determined by yourself and whatever nationality, background, social group, community, and/or religion, that you decide to identify with. I mean, you have a name right? Most people identify with the origin of their family name as (barring any hanky-panky) it is passed down through the generations. Yes, it is usually passed down by word of mouth from your parents, grandparents, etc… and their family names. > > Although there is more cultural diversity now than ever before, this is relatively modern. Traditionally, most ethnicities tended to stay within their community when settling in new regions, socializing, marrying, having children, etc… > > Myself for instance, I identify with Scotland, my name is Scottish, (Gaelic actually) My wife has a Scottish name and background. My wife, 2 of my children, my aunts/uncles, nieces/nephews/cousins have red hair, etc… My father’s name and bloodline traces back to Scotland but my paternal grandmother is French-Canadian and her maiden name and family trace back to France. My mom, and maternal grandparents are both Scottish and have Scottish family names, as did all four of my great-grandparents, and so on. > > If you identify as American that’s fine, in fact, you can identify with multiple ethnicities if you choose… Hey, why not… AND… St. Paddy’s Day is in 2 days! My husband and his brother identified as Irish their whole lives (they also knew they were English and Scottish - but they thought their last name and half their heritage with Irish). My late brother in law grabbed onto this - he played Irish music in an Irish band. He traveled to Ireland several times. He drank Guinness and Irish Whiskey. He learned Gaelic Then their mother started digging into genealogy. Turns out its more English, and more English (and some French and Scottish) ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/66 "2019-03-19T00:15:04Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’m baffled by people who do. > > My father was adopted. Going back before my own parents, paternity may be uncertain, secret adoptions happen, people lie during the immigration process or pass once they enter the country as something other than something that is discriminated against (which has included in the past Irish, German, Jewish, Italian, Slavic, Roma). African Americans descended from slaves almost certainly have some DNA of their former masters - not to mention Africa is a big place with hundreds of its own ethnicities in it - and that ethnic history is usually lost. Going back to the old country - my mother’s family came from a part of what is now Germany that has not always been Germany. > > Even my son, adopted from South Korea, is thought by other Koreans to have as much Chinese as Korean in him given his features and birthname. > > I’m really confused how anyone in the U.S. knows their ethnicity with any certainty at all. For some of us, it’s easy. My mother’s grandparents were all born in Sicily and my father’s parents were born in Gottschee- and I knew most of them, so it’s not a matter of ancient history that was passed down to me. My husband’s biological parents ( he was adopted ) were both born in China (as was his older brother who found my husband when they were in their 30s). My son-in-law’s father was born in Ireland. My future grandchildren will know their ancestry except for their paternal grandmother’s line which seems to be a Midwestern mix of German/English/ Scandinavian and the stereotypical Native American - but that family seems have been in the US for a couple of hundred years. Adoption may make it almost impossible\* , but aside from that, knowing your ancestry and identifying as part of an ethnic group in the US is very much related to how long your family has been here ( which I suspect is also related to how many different ethnicities are in your background) - or maybe not - my husband’s adoption was neither open nor a secret) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/67 "2019-03-19T00:35:15Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’m baffled by people who do. > > My father was adopted. Going back before my own parents, paternity may be uncertain, secret adoptions happen, people lie during the immigration process or pass once they enter the country as something other than something that is discriminated against (which has included in the past Irish, German, Jewish, Italian, Slavic, Roma). African Americans descended from slaves almost certainly have some DNA of their former masters - not to mention Africa is a big place with hundreds of its own ethnicities in it - and that ethnic history is usually lost. Going back to the old country - my mother’s family came from a part of what is now Germany that has not always been Germany. > > Even my son, adopted from South Korea, is thought by other Koreans to have as much Chinese as Korean in him given his features and birthname. > > I’m really confused how anyone in the U.S. knows their ethnicity with any certainty at all. _Because ethnicity is not primarily genetic_. If you don’t know whether you are of German ethnicity then by definition you are not of German ethnicity. Ethnicity is social. It is learned from your family. It is reflected by your personal feelings and interests. It doesn’t matter whether you have any confidence in the knowledge of your genetic history because that’s not what defines your ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/68 "2019-03-19T02:19:23Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’m really confused how anyone in the U.S. knows their ethnicity with any certainty at all. > [@Acsenray](#): > > _Because ethnicity is not primarily genetic_. If you don’t know whether you are of German ethnicity then by definition you are not of German ethnicity. Ethnicity is social. It is learned from your family. It is reflected by your personal feelings and interests. It doesn’t matter whether you have any confidence in the knowledge of your genetic history because that’s not what defines your ethnicity. Right. You’re confusing genetics with ethnicity. Although I’m Irish/German/Swiss, my ethnicity is above all Irish, with a tiny sliver of German, and zero Swiss. And it would be the same if it turned out my Irish ancestors were all descended from shipwrecked sailors from the Spanish Armada. > [@](#): > > African Americans descended from slaves almost certainly have some DNA of their former masters - not to mention Africa is a big place with hundreds of its own ethnicities in it - and that ethnic history is usually lost. This is a perfect point. African Americans have their own ethnicity distinct from any African one, and whether they have European ancestry is irrelevant to that ethnicity. My sister married a guy from Guyana of African and South Asian ancestry. Her children are not ethnically African American (as in descendants of slave in the US), but have a distinct black Caribbean ethnicity. (Of course they have picked up elements of African American ethnicity by exposure as well.) Genetically they’re about a third Irish, but I don’t know how much they regard themselves as ethnically Irish. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/69 "2019-03-19T03:46:32Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’m a little baffled by how you wouldn’t know. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’m baffled by people who do. > [@Johanna](#): > > Were you adopted? > [@Dangerosa](#): > > My father was adopted. That was… kind of my point. If adoption doesn’t intervene, it’s normal for the older generations to pass along knowledge of ancestry to the younger generations. Why would they suppress this information (again, apart from cases of adoption)? P.S. I’d like to stress that this general rule wouldn’t be expected to apply in cases of _adoption_. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/70 "2019-03-19T04:16:11Z")
And in cases of adoption your ethnicity will be that of your adoptive parents. If you find out that your birth parents were from a different ethnic background, or in the case of interracial adoption that’s obvious, you may make an effort to identify with that ethnicity later on, but you may not. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/71 "2019-03-19T05:10:16Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’m a little baffled by how you wouldn’t know. Were you adopted? I didn’t know that my immigrant German great-grandfather was probably Jewish, because no-one in the family knew. That might have been enough in certain times and places to condemn my family to persecution. So important facts can be hidden for reasons of shame or safety. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/72 "2019-03-19T06:56:08Z")
One of my favourite parts of the TV series _Who Do You Think You Are_ (of which there are many localised editions; I primarily watch the UK original) is when their assumed lineage takes an unexpected turn to a country that they literally had no idea was in their family tree. Two I recall were for impressionist Alistair McGowan and comedian Sarah Millican. India! What? Turkey? Who knew? Canada! WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/73 "2019-03-19T13:53:05Z")
I once went to a lecture by an Italian geneticist who said his family had lived in the same village in Italy for centuries. When he analyzed his own genetics, it turned out his mtDNA, inherited through the female line, was from the Middle East, and probably indicated Jewish ancestry. His Y-chromosome was from Central Asia and had probably come into Europe with the Huns or other raiders. But of course his ethnicity was still Italian. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/74 "2019-03-19T14:05:47Z")
Before DNA testing, people identified their ethnicity geographically. My family from both my mother’s and my father’s side are from southern Italy. They came through Ellis Island and settled in Brooklyn. When they “made it”, they moved to “The Island”. Easy-peasy. Now, with genetic testing, ethnicity isn’t nearly as simple. I have a former colleague who always considered himself German but, after testing, he discovered that he is mostly other things. Southern Italy was an invasion route for armies from Africa and Asia and, during the Crusades, armies from northern Europe passed through there as well. I could very easily have genetic traces from any number of sources. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/75 "2019-03-19T14:27:50Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > One of my favourite parts of the TV series _Who Do You Think You Are_ (of which there are many localised editions; I primarily watch the UK original) is when their assumed lineage takes an unexpected turn to a country that they literally had no idea was in their family tree. Two I recall were for impressionist Alistair McGowan and comedian Sarah Millican. India! What? Turkey? Who knew? Canada! WTF? Nicely parodied by [Armstrong and Miller](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c65QRaR16io&t=175s) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/76 "2019-03-19T15:11:03Z")
Yes, everyone lauded (or used to ) Tiger Woods, the most successful African-American golfer ever… who is half Malaysian, and maybe one quarter European and one quarter African-American, assuming the natural proclivities of nineteenth century slave owners… You are what you identify as. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/77 "2019-03-19T15:33:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’m a little baffled by how you wouldn’t know. Were you adopted? I wasn’t adopted but have only a vague idea of what my ethnicity is. It’s a mix of English, Welsh, French, Irish, German… probably. Honestly Welsh is an educated guess and I am not a hundred percent sure on Irish and what proportion I am of those things I don’t know, either. Hell, I could have Dutch, Spanish, Polish, who the hell knows? This is not at all uncommon. I have no relative closer than a great-great-grandparent who was not born in Canada, and I can tell you absolutely nothing about any of my great-great-grandparents. A lot of people like me are just “generic white garbage” now. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/78 "2019-03-19T16:42:25Z")
I might know almost nothing about my pedigree, except that almost 60 years ago, my Mom helped me write letters to a few great-great aunts and a great-great uncle. Many old-timers had family records; without that starting point it would have been very difficult or almost impossible to construct the largish pedigree I now have for myself. Even without those starting records, we already did have some vague knowledge of our ethnicity. (At some point my line of Presbyterian Irish immigrants switched to Episcopalian. I don’t know if that was before, after, or concurrent with the ancestors being Freemasons.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/79 "2019-03-19T17:11:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I wasn’t adopted but have only a vague idea of what my ethnicity is. It’s a mix of English, Welsh, French, Irish, German… probably. Honestly Welsh is an educated guess and I am not a hundred percent sure on Irish and what proportion I am of those things I don’t know, either. Hell, I could have Dutch, Spanish, Polish, who the hell knows? > > This is not at all uncommon. I have no relative closer than a great-great-grandparent who was not born in Canada, and I can tell you absolutely nothing about any of my great-great-grandparents. A lot of people like me are just “generic white garbage” now. You’d be Canadian. That’s a perfectly fine ethnicity, but it’s also distinct from other “generic white” brands with different cultural backgrounds, whether they happen to be gargabe or not. > [@md2000](#): > > Yes, everyone lauded (or used to ) Tiger Woods, the most successful African-American golfer ever… who is half Malaysian, and maybe one quarter European and one quarter African-American, assuming the natural proclivities of nineteenth century slave owners… You are what you identify as. Uh… he was heavily criticised for pointing out that his ethnicity was in fact much more complicated than “African-American”; he was key in popularizing the labels “mixed race” and “mixed ethnicity”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183/80 "2019-03-19T18:05:39Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Now, with genetic testing, ethnicity isn’t nearly as simple. I have a former colleague who always considered himself German but, after testing, he discovered that he is mostly other things. _Ethnicity is not primarily genetic._ DNA testing can’t change your ethnicity. > [@RickJay](#): > > I wasn’t adopted but have only a vague idea of what my ethnicity is. It’s a mix of English, Welsh, French, Irish, German… probably. Honestly Welsh is an educated guess and I am not a hundred percent sure on Irish and what proportion I am of those things I don’t know, either. Hell, I could have Dutch, Spanish, Polish, who the hell knows? > > This is not at all uncommon. I have no relative closer than a great-great-grandparent who was not born in Canada, and I can tell you absolutely nothing about any of my great-great-grandparents. A lot of people like me are just “generic white garbage” now. _Ethnicity is not primarily genetic._ Unless you grew up considering yourself ethnically English, Welsh, French, Irish, and German, you are not ethnically English, Welsh, French, Irish, and German. If you aren’t sure whether you are ethnically Welsh, then you are not ethnically Welsh. If you are not sure whether you are ethnically Irish, you are not ethnically Irish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-know-their-or-others-specific-ethnicity/831183.md?page=5)