# How do people use singular they? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 7, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418 "2011-12-07T22:19:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/21 "2011-12-08T02:59:22Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > (Where Pat is a person familiar to the speaker but of unknown gender.) Familiar but of unknown gender? We seem to be in a _Saturday Night Live_ sketch with this one. > [@Frylock](#): > > “Pat needs to return to their seat.” I think the correct form in this situation is “Pat needs to return to _mumble_ seat.” ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/22 "2011-12-08T03:09:53Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I often wish there was a widespread, acceptable gender-neutral short version of ‘him or her’ and the like. Would save a lot of rewriting, particularly when the target audience includes a range of high-end sensitivities. But nothing comes close, so ‘they’ and ‘their’ and whatnot prevail for the time being. I personally favor “h’orsh’it”: [Is there a gender-neutral substitute for "his or her?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/750/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/23 "2011-12-08T03:35:33Z")
> [@Arjuna34](#): > > I personally favor “h’orsh’it”: > > [Is there a gender-neutral substitute for "his or her?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/750/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her) Nice. I’ve always done “s/h/it” when I was feeling cheeky. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/24 "2011-12-08T19:58:19Z")
Just today I ran across this set of abominations while completing a feedback survey as part of my boss’s evaluation (I’ve changed his name but nothing else): > [@](#): > > What could John Smith start doing to improve their effectiveness? > > What could John Smith stop doing to improve their effectiveness? > > What does John Smith already do that they could do more of to improve their effectiveness? _::shudder::_ ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/25 "2011-12-08T20:08:44Z")
Zynga games does this when making announcements on Facebook: “Betty Sue just added 14 palominos to their ranch!” Even though to play the game you have to give them permission to access your gender among other information, they couldn’t be bothered to write software to acknowledge it. Kind of annoying. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/26 "2011-12-09T20:04:19Z")
The conventional singular “they” (for undefined persons) is attested all the way back to Chaucer, so it’s neither “slang” nor “politically correct.” I should also point out that there are a number of people who prefer to be referred to as “they” for gender reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/27 "2011-12-09T21:46:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Zynga games does this when making announcements on Facebook: > > “Betty Sue just added 14 palominos to their ranch!” > > Even though to play the game you have to give them permission to access your gender among other information, they couldn’t be bothered to write software to acknowledge it. Kind of annoying. So how would you solve the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/28 "2011-12-09T21:50:20Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > So how would you solve the problem? What am I missing? If the software has access to the gender you’ve put on the record on Facebook, then the software can be written to use gender-appropriate pronouns. I’ve always wondered why Facebook does this as well. To me, singular ‘they’ when used to refer to a definite individual _does_ sound wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/29 "2011-12-10T06:02:54Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What am I missing? If the software has access to the gender you’ve put on the record on Facebook, then the software can be written to use gender-appropriate pronouns. > > I’ve always wondered why Facebook does this as well. To me, singular ‘they’ when used to refer to a definite individual _does_ sound wrong. That’s the thing—the definiteness of an individual is where singular _they_ rubs the wrong way. Otherwise, I think it’s fine and the best way to maintain gender neutrality and fairness to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/30 "2011-12-10T06:44:58Z")
There is a substitute for “his or her.” I use it all the time: “Her or his.” You’d be surprised how quickly you can get used to using it. Neither usage is all that awkward. Wouldn’t it be easy if “correct” English grammar were just a matter of what sounds right or whatever people want to use! Certainly the language changes all the time, but it takes writers and linguistic scholars to declare the boundaries formally broken. I credit Normal Mailer for using a split infinitive in the first sentence of one of his books with actually going where no man had dared to go. _Star Trek_ did a lot to get us used to hearing “to boldly go” in popular culture, but Mailer made such a usage very intentionally. Are we really ready for: “Me and him borrowed Toby some money”? _Shudder_ I wouldn’t advise any freshman English students to try to use a singular _they_ in English 101. From time to time you may have an upper level professor who believes in descriptive English rather than imposing rules. But for the most part, you have to know the rules first. By the way, as a matter of style: "Different _from_, not different _than_ ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/31 "2011-12-10T07:02:05Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I credit Normal Mailer for using a split infinitive in the first sentence of one of his books with actually going where no man had dared to go. Split infinitives date back to, oh, the 13th or 14th century in English. The idea that infinitives shouldn’t be split is just some silly superstition. Wordsworth did it. Donne did it. Twain did it. George Eliot, Robert Burns, Byron, Wilde, etc… I’m not sure why you would single out Mailer for it. Splitting an infinitive in English is completely and utterly unremarkable. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/32 "2011-12-10T07:34:39Z")
Anyone should be able to remember to never split their infinitives. 😉 > [@Frylock](#): > > A. “Everyone on the flight needs to return to their seat.” It should really be “seats”, plural, at the end. Unless all the passengers share one giant seat. But otherwise, okay. > [@](#): > > B. (Where Pat is a person familiar to the speaker but of unknown gender.) “Pat needs to return to their seat.” I think this mainly sounds wrong because we wouldn’t normally know a person’s name without knowing their gender. (Oops, I might be getting a little meta here.) Imagine, instead, someone in the crew notices an empty seat in the front row that had been occupied. They (sorry) might say, “Someone in the front row still needs to return to their seat.” Basically, singular “they” works when speaking in the abstract, or of an unknown individual. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/33 "2011-12-10T07:54:02Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Wordsworth did it. … and with an albatross, no less! > [@](#): > > Donne did it. … but Anne did it More. > [@](#): > > Twain did it. … while thinking about the Mysterious Stranger, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/34 "2011-12-10T07:57:04Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Wouldn’t it be easy if “correct” English grammar were just a matter of what sounds right or whatever people want to use! Certainly the language changes all the time, but it takes writers and linguistic scholars to declare the boundaries formally broken. I would say that people change language, so effectively, it is whatever people want to use (but as a group, not as individuals) - linguists merely acknowledge those changes, and they certainly don’t do so unanimously or simultaneously. But the fact of the matter is that no one really cares. The vast majority of people will never read up on linguistics and it is precisely they who define the language. It really is quite democratic. > [@Zoe](#): > > I wouldn’t advise any freshman English students to try to use a singular _they_ in English 101. From time to time you may have an upper level professor who believes in descriptive English rather than imposing rules. But for the most part, you have to know the rules first. Yeah, when it comes to getting good grades, the easiest rule is that your teacher is always right. Just do what they say and move on with your life. But when they leave the classroom and start telling people how to talk, it doesn’t work as well 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/35 "2011-12-10T10:44:47Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Wouldn’t it be easy if “correct” English grammar were just a matter of what sounds right or whatever people want to use! And it is that easy for most people. It’s hard for people who want to describe and study language (linguists) and people who bind themselves to arbitrary rules (prescriptivists). > [@](#): > > Certainly the language changes all the time, but it takes writers and linguistic scholars to declare the boundaries formally broken. Why? Who says so? By what authority do they say it? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/36 "2011-12-10T12:20:45Z")
Fascinating discussion. The usage of ‘they’ as a singular seems to me to be a replacement for the phrase ‘him or her’. The injunction against splitting an infinitive may be traced back to the syntax of Latin. This is also the probable origin of the rule that states that one must never end a sentence with a participle. “This is the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put.” Winston Churchill ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/37 "2011-12-10T15:22:17Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > The injunction against splitting an infinitive may be traced back to the syntax of Latin. That’s probably a linguistic urban legend. [See here.](http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/html/2027.42/62004/words.html) > [@](#): > > Many people who ought to know better—“authorities” on English—declare that the objection to separating to from the infinitive verb that follows is based on Latin (or some other language) where infinitives are single words. If some purist has made such a comparison, I can find no record of it. Henry Alford (The Queen’s English [1866]) thinks the to and the verb are “inseparable” but he does not mention foreign languages (p. 227). This idea is part of the folklore of linguistics. By the time I was in high school (early 90s), there wasn’t a single English teacher who was spreading that “don’t split infinitives” nonsense as a “rule.” ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/38 "2011-12-10T18:36:49Z")
I have always held that the singular “they” is the solution to the “his or her” problem that does the least violence to the language, and should therefore be the solution adopted. To the extent that it makes language less precise, it is an acceptable trade-off. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/39 "2011-12-10T19:00:37Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > I have always held that the singular “they” is the solution to the “his or her” problem that does the least violence to the language, and should therefore be the solution adopted. To the extent that it makes language less precise, it is an acceptable trade-off. [The Canadian Department of Justice agrees with you](http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/dept-min/pub/legis/n41.html) (although I go farther than they do in that I believe that “themself” is a perfectly acceptable reflexive for singular “they,” just like “yourself” is the reflexive of singular “you,” which was originally plural and still is in its construction). ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418/40 "2011-12-10T19:29:50Z")
On Reddit the other day someone posted “Can anyone else ‘crack’ their erect penis?” If ever there were a time to play the percentages and risk using _ **his** _. . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-people-use-singular-they/605418.md?page=3)