# How do religious Jews explain the Holocaust?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 16, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015 "2005-09-16T18:34:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/1 "2005-09-16T18:34:35Z")
Based on this statement by **DocCathode** : “the Lord who brought us forth from Egypt”, in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333521) thread, it got me thinking:
Do religious Jews think God actively tries to help them out in day-to-day life?
If so, then how do they explain the Holocaust? (it was, after all, a horrific thing that happened to his \*chosen \*people).
Do they think that:
- They were behaving badly in some way and so were punished (a la Sodom and Gomorrah?)
- It was God’s will, and we can’t fathom why he does what he does (a la Job’s suffering)
- Something else?
If they don’t think that God actively interferes in day-to-day life, then how can they believe that God was “the Lord who brought us forth from Egypt”?
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/2 "2005-09-16T18:43:27Z")
Is this any different than faithful folks of any religion explaining why bad things happen to them?
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### Author:  [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/3 "2005-09-16T18:56:39Z")
> [@rjung](#):
>
> Is this any different than faithful folks of any religion explaining why bad things happen to them?
Well, I’m pretty familiar with Christian explanations, and I was curious to see how Jews might attack such issues.
Also, one difference between bad things happening to Christians and the Holocaust, is that usually the bad things that happen to Christians are somewhat random (hurricanes, earthquakes, etc), and during these events they were not explicitly targeted simply because they are Christian. In the Holocaust though, Jews were the only target, and they were targeted simply because they were Jewish.
Add to that the fact that, according to their religion, they are the chosen ones (correct me if I’m wrong), and it makes a mass disaster specifically targeted towards Jews even more puzzling and difficult to explain within a religious framework.
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### Author:  [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/4 "2005-09-16T19:02:02Z")
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> Add to that the fact that, according to their religion, they are the chosen ones (correct me if I’m wrong), and it makes a mass disaster specifically targeted towards Jews even more puzzling and difficult to explain within a religious framework.
“Chosen” does not specifically mean “priveledged”. In fact, I belief “chosen” means “held to a higher standard than anyone else, and forced to suffer more for failures”.
But perhaps someone who is actually Jewish could be more specific.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/5 "2005-09-16T19:10:37Z")
I think **John Corrado** has probably nailed it. Many Jewish people would probably add that the Holocaust paved the way for the creation of Israel.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/6 "2005-09-16T19:13:34Z")
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> . . . Jews were the only target . . .
Plus homosexuals, gypsies, disabled people, etc., plus anyone who stood up for them.
And you can’t equate the Holocaust with hurricanes and earthquakes, since it was caused by humans with free will.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/7 "2005-09-16T20:07:21Z")
As I understand it, the only thing promised by the Covenant is that the Jews, as a people, shall not vanish from the earth.
Yep, that’s it. Follow these rules, and you won’t vanish from the earth.
Well, we survived the Holocaust, didn’t we?
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### Author:  [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/8 "2005-09-16T20:29:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Many Jewish people would probably add that the Holocaust paved the way for the creation of Israel.
Uh… I don’t think you want to go there. Many Jewish people think of Israel as a good thing, and I don’t know that anybody thinks of the Holocaust as anything but an irredeemably bad thing. Some clouds have no silver lining.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/9 "2005-09-16T20:38:24Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#):
>
> Uh… I don’t think you want to go there. Many Jewish people think of Israel as a good thing, and I don’t know that anybody thinks of the Holocaust as anything but an irredeemably bad thing. Some clouds have no silver lining.
All I can say is that I’ve heard it said. I’ve never heard it put in the sense of “well, I’m glad _that_ happened,” but people apparently can find a silver lining.
And if the creation of Israel isn’t a silver lining for some people, I’m tempted to suggest that the humor that Mel Brooks has gotten at the expense of the Nazis over the last four decades is also a silver lining.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/10 "2005-09-17T03:09:47Z")
(Why are the questions for Jews always posted on Friday evenings?)
Speaking of silver linings, has anti-Semitism gone down, or been less tolerated, since WWII (where we saw what it could lead to)?
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/11 "2005-09-17T03:24:37Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#):
>
> Uh… I don’t think you want to go there. Many Jewish people think of Israel as a good thing, and I don’t know that anybody thinks of the Holocaust as anything but an irredeemably bad thing. Some clouds have no silver lining.
Why wouldn’t he want to go there? I’ve heard the same thing expressed by other Jews. Holocaust survivor and Nobel prize winner Elie Weisel seems to feel that since the Holocaust was so horrible, we should try to get as much good out of it as we can. He received the Nobel Peace prize for using his status as a survivor to get attention and resources to stop other genocides.
Weisel does tell of several other inmates who became atheists. Weisel and many others felt that by ceasing to be Jews, they did Hitlers work for him. Some Jews refer to a six hundred and fourteenth commandment ‘Don’t grant the Nazi’s posthumous victories.’
I don’t remember if it was Weisel or another writer who summed up their experience with “I believe in the sun, though it is not shining. I believe in laughter, though I see only tears. I believe in G-d, though He is silent.”
**John Corrado** has it right. We were chosen to receive the covenant. This does not make us better than anybody else. It means we have to follow more rules.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/12 "2005-09-17T06:14:37Z")
After WWII a number of Jews felt that God had broken his covenant with them (to the extent it existed) and some became non-religious.
[From Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_theology)
> [@](#):
>
> Irving Greenberg
> Rabbi Irving Greenberg is a Modern Orthodox rabbi who has written extensively on how the Holocaust should affect Jewish theology. Greenberg has an Orthodox understanding of God. Like many other Orthodox Jews, he does not believe that God forces people to follow Jewish law; rather he believes that Jewish law is God’s will for the Jewish people, and that Jews should follow Jewish law as normative.
>
> Greenberg’s break with Orthodox theology comes with his analysis of the implications of the Holocaust. He writes that the worst thing that God could do to the Jewish people for failing to follow the law is Holocaust-level devastation, yet this has already occurred. Greenberg is not claiming that God did use the Holocaust to punish Jews; he is just saying that if God chose to do so, that would be the worst possible thing. There really isn’t much worse that one could do. Therefore, since God can’t punish us any worse than what actually has happened, and since God doesn’t force Jews to follow Jewish law, then we can’t claim that these laws are enforceable on us. Therefore he argues that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is effectively broken and unenforceable.
>
> Greenberg notes that there have been several terrible destructions of the Jewish community, each with the effect of distancing the Jewish people further from God. According to rabbinic literature, after the destruction of the first Temple in Jerusalem and the mass-killing of Jerusalem’s Jews, the Jews received no more direct prophecy. After the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem and the mass-killing of Jerusalem’s Jews, the Jews no longer could present sacrifices at the Temple. This way of reaching God was at an end. After the Holocaust, Greenberg concludes that God isn’t responding to the prayers of Jews anymore.
>
> Thus, God has unilaterally broken his covenant with the Jewish people. In this view, God no longer has the moral authority to command people to follow his will. Greenberg does not conclude that Jews and God should part way; rather he holds that we should heal the covenant between Jews and God, and that the Jewish people should accept Jewish law on a voluntary basis.
>
> His views on this subject have made him the subject of much criticism within the Orthodox community.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/13 "2005-09-17T06:24:09Z")
[BTW the link above is for Wikipedia’s Holocaust theology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_theology) which answers the OP question from all angles, not just Greenberg’s perspective.
> [@](#):
>
> Holocaust theology refers to a body of theological and philosophical debate, soul-searching, and analysis, with the subsequent related literature, that attempts to come to grips with various conflicting views about the role of God in this human world and the dark events of the European Holocaust that occurred during World War II (1939-1945) when around 11 million people, including six million Jews were subjected to genocide by the Nazis and their cohorts.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/14 "2005-09-17T14:56:31Z")
I don’t know how developed this idea RE the Holocaust had been in Jewish thought but I know that the “Suffering Servant” passages in Isaiah has been applied to the underserved suffering of righteous Jews.
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### Author:  [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/15 "2005-09-17T15:45:23Z")
As a non Jew and an outsider, I think in a more simple and direct way. God did not cause or allow the Holocaust. Evil men did. Good men ended it.
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### Author:  [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/16 "2005-09-17T20:23:29Z")
> [@astro](#):
>
> [BTW the link above is for Wikipedia’s Holocaust theology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_theology) which answers the OP question from all angles, not just Greenberg’s perspective.
That’s a pretty cool link, thanks. (it seems Wikipedia has an article on _anything_)
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### Author:  [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/17 "2005-09-17T20:26:10Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> And you can’t equate the Holocaust with hurricanes and earthquakes, since it was caused by humans with free will.
Yes, but God interfered with the free will of the Pharaoh to get the Jews out of Egypt (i.e. with the seven plagues).
Why couldn’t he use similar plagues to convince Hitler to leave the Jews alone?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/18 "2005-09-17T20:29:54Z")
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> Why couldn’t he use similar plagues to convince Hitler to leave the Jews alone?
Well, one could argue that He did, in the form of Russian and Allied armies.
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### Author:  [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/19 "2005-09-17T20:32:52Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#):
>
> Well, one could argue that He did, in the form of Russian and Allied armies.
Wasn’t he 6 million dead Jews too late?
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-religious-jews-explain-the-holocaust/322015/20 "2005-09-18T03:59:55Z")
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> Yes, but God interfered with the free will of the Pharaoh to get the Jews out of Egypt (i.e. with the seven plagues).
No, He didn’t. After each plague (and I’ve heard arguments for 10, 40, and 50 but not 7) G-d ‘hardened pharaoh’s heart’. In other words, He rendered him immune to the overpowering terror that had caused him to agree to free the Jews and allowed him to reach a decision through an exercise of his free will.
> [@](#):
>
> Why couldn’t he use similar plagues to convince Hitler to leave the Jews alone?
No reason why He couldn’t. However, the pharaoh had _all_ the Jews. The Nazis had millions of us, but not all.
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