# How do restaurants keep their ground beef clean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 7, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679 "2011-06-07T22:27:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/21 "2011-06-09T01:11:48Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > \ > A lot is also dictated to us by the state/county/local health department, whose standards probably vary somewhat from one jurisdiction to another. Here in Washington, we’re required to cook all ground beef to a _minimum_ internal temperature of 155 degrees Fahrenheit. No exceptions for “non-crappy” restaurants. A cook who serves undercooked ground beef is violating industry regulations and putting himself and his restaurant (and of course, the person eating the ground beef) at risk. > \ Yipes. That sucks. For me, at least. If it’s anything larger than a quarter pounder, anything above a medium rare burger is, in my opinion, less than optimal. (I’m being diplomatic, see.) So is beef tartare completely off the menu in Washington? I would hate to live a life where that was not available. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/22 "2011-06-09T01:55:35Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So is beef tartare completely off the menu in Washington? I would hate to live a life where that was not available. Steak tartare isn’t ground beef, so technically it should be copacetic. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/23 "2011-06-09T02:45:22Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Would time be a factor? If it goes from butchered to ground to served in a short period of time does that help any? It would have to be a really short time; like butchering the cow and then grinding & cooking the meat before it ever has a chance to cool down! Because the e. coli bacteria lifetime (creation, growth, reproduction, and death) lasts only 20-30 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/24 "2011-06-09T03:51:44Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So is beef tartare completely off the menu in Washington? I would hate to live a life where that was not available. Strictly speaking, the regulations say that beef has to be cooked to an internal temp of 140 degrees, with the exception that _rare_ (non-ground) beef can be cooked to only 130 degrees, if it is then served _immediately_. So you could cook a steak to 130 degrees, but if it’s something like a roast that you will be carving portions from (for example, a prime rib), you have to cook it to and hold it at 140. Of course, this only applies to commercial food preparation. There’s no law preventing you from cooking your own beef however you like. ETA: Of course, I’m limiting my answers to what the regulations say. I can’t speak for what individual chefs/restaurants would be willing to do. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/25 "2011-06-09T04:31:32Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Strictly speaking, the regulations say that beef has to be cooked to an internal temp of 140 degrees, with the exception that _rare_ (non-ground) beef can be cooked to only 130 degrees, if it is then served _immediately_. So you could cook a steak to 130 degrees, but if it’s something like a roast that you will be carving portions from (for example, a prime rib), you have to cook it to and hold it at 140. > > Of course, this only applies to commercial food preparation. There’s no law preventing you from cooking your own beef however you like. > ETA: Of course, I’m limiting my answers to what the regulations say. I can’t speak for what individual chefs/restaurants would be willing to do. So that sounds like beef tartare is illegal in Washington then? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/26 "2011-06-09T04:41:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So that sounds like beef tartare is illegal in Washington then? Fear not! Beef sushi will remain. [From the Washington State Retail Food Code Working Document](http://www.doh.wa.gov/ehp/food/ruleworkingdoc-chapter3.pdf) > [@](#): > > (D) A raw animal FOOD such as raw EGG, raw FISH, raw-marinated FISH, raw MOLLUSCAN SHELLFISH, or steak tartare; or a partially cooked FOOD such as lightly cooked FISH, soft cooked EGGS, or rare MEAT other than WHOLE-MUSCLE, INTACT BEEF steaks as specified in ¶ (C) of this section, may be served or offered for sale in a READY-TO-EAT form if: > (1) The FOOD ESTABLISHMENT serves a population that is not a HIGHLY SUSCEPTIBLE POPULATION, and > (2) The CONSUMER is informed as specified under § 3-603.11 that to ensure its safety, the FOOD should be cooked as specified under ¶ (A) or (B) of this section; or > (3) The REGULATORY AUTHORITY grants a VARIANCE from ¶ (A) or (B) of this section as specified in § 8-103.10 based on a HACCP PLAN that: > (a) Is submitted by the PERMIT HOLDER and APPROVED as specified under § 8-103.11, > (b) Documents scientific data or other information showing that a lesser time and temperature regimen results in a safe FOOD, and > (c) Verifies that EQUIPMENT and procedures for FOOD preparation and training of FOOD EMPLOYEES at the FOOD ESTABLISHMENT meet the conditions of the VARIANCE. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/27 "2011-06-09T04:50:22Z")
YAY!! I think??? ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/28 "2011-06-09T04:57:42Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yipes. That sucks. For me, at least. If it’s anything larger than a quarter pounder, anything above a medium rare burger is, in my opinion, less than optimal. (I’m being diplomatic, see.) > > So is beef tartare completely off the menu in Washington? I would hate to live a life where that was not available. Dying from an E. coli infection sucks more. 4 children died and many more people developed serious kidney problems from the Jack in the Box outbreak in 1993, mostly in Washington. > **[Jack in the Box E. coli Outbreak Lawsuits - Western States (1993)](https://marlerclark.com/news_events/jack-in-the-box-e-coli-outbreak-western-states)** > > In 1993, the Jack in the Box E. coli outbreak sickened over 700 people, most of them from Washington state. Lawyers now at Marler Clark handled most of… > [@](#): > > Over the course of the outbreak investigation and the litigation that followed, documents from Foodmaker, the San Diego-based parent company of Jack in the Box, revealed that the company had been warned by local health departments and by their own employees that they were undercooking their hamburgers prior to the outbreak, but the company had decided that cooking beef to 155 degrees, the standard set by WDOH, made the meat too tough. > > Jack in the Box reported that in the 18 months following the outbreak the company lost approximately $160 million. It faced hundreds of lawsuits from ill customers, and stockholders filed suit against the company for court costs and lost sales due to adverse publicity. President Clinton called congressional hearings regarding the safety of the food supply and the Secretary of Agriculture testified before the Washington State legislature. FDA raised the recommended internal temperature of cooked hamburgers to 155 degrees Fahrenheit and FSIS also declared E. coli O157:H7 an adulterant in raw ground beef. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/29 "2011-06-09T06:29:56Z")
**TriPolar** , that’s interesting to know. The regs you quoted there are above and beyond the “standard” information that average line-level cooks like me are required to be know, and it would appear that if an establishment wants to do that kind of thing, they need to specifically apply for a variance. I know that my immediate superior at work, the Executive Chef, has a different, higher-level Food Handler’s Permit than the one the rest of us have, so that’s stuff he probably knows. Of course, we’re a banquet/convention facility, so we stick to the “standard” rules just because of the large, diverse groups we serve. And, as **Implicit** points out, my state was where most of that Jack in the Box/e. coli stuff happened, so we’re probably stricter than many other states when it comes to this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/30 "2011-06-09T06:44:17Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > **TriPolar** , that’s interesting to know. The regs you quoted there are above and beyond the “standard” information that average line-level cooks like me are required to be know, and it would appear that if an establishment wants to do that kind of thing, they need to specifically apply for a variance. I know that my immediate superior at work, the Executive Chef, has a different, higher-level Food Handler’s Permit than the one the rest of us have, so that’s stuff he probably knows. Of course, we’re a banquet/convention facility, so we stick to the “standard” rules just because of the large, diverse groups we serve. > > And, as **Implicit** points out, my state was where most of that Jack in the Box/e. coli stuff happened, so we’re probably stricter than many other states when it comes to this stuff. It looks like items 1 and 2 together are sufficient, not highly susceptible population, and warning the customer. The trouble is a banquet facility would have difficulty knowing exactly who they are serving, and ensuring warnings. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/31 "2011-06-09T15:39:28Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Steak tartare isn’t ground beef, so technically it should be copacetic. Depends on where and what kind you get. Yes, the kind I like is finely chopped by hand, but the Eastern European style I’ve had growing up was generally put through a grinder. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/32 "2011-06-09T16:13:01Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Depends on where and what kind you get. Yes, the kind I like is finely chopped by hand, but the Eastern European style I’ve had growing up was generally put through a grinder. You can eliminate the threat of e. coli by quickly searing the outside of a cut of meat then trimming that off before cutting up and/or grinding. I don’t even bother with the searing. I’ll eat raw meat cut from the center of a round or filet without any special prep. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/33 "2011-06-09T16:19:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You can eliminate the threat of e. coli by quickly searing the outside of a cut of meat then trimming that off before cutting up and/or grinding. I don’t even bother with the searing. I’ll eat raw meat cut from the center of a round or filet without any special prep. Yeah, I’ve always heard it’s the surface of the meat that’s problematic, and then grinding the meat just spreads that stuff all over place–to the inside of the meat where it doesn’t get killed by cooking and to the innards of the grinder. That said, it’s a risk I’m willing to (and regularly) take. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/34 "2011-06-09T17:16:13Z")
About e. coli in vacuum sealed, anaerobic packages. Those always seem way cooler (cleaner) than the “regular” packed food --actually I’m thinking more of chickens here than meat. What’s their story compared to the meats in regular packages? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/35 "2011-06-09T19:28:17Z")
> [@tanstaafl](#): > > Most restaurants that let you choose your own doneness for meats also seem to have a warning in their menu along the lines of “The consumption of undercooked meats is a potential health hazard” (with the actual verbiage being more legalese). I suspect that’s how they cover themselves if someone gets sick after ordering a raw hamburger or something. In a lot of municipalities, it’s a legal requirement if you serve particular items like rarer beef or sunny-side-up eggs. Here in CT, the wording is: Consuming raw, cooked to order or undercooked meats, poultry, seafood, shellfish or eggs may increase your risk of food borne illness, especially if you have certain medical conditions. Thoroughly cooking meats, poultry, seafood, shellfish or eggs reduces the risk of food borne illness. For more information about food borne illness, please refer to [FDA.gov](http://FDA.gov) I think it’s useless, personally. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/36 "2011-06-10T05:34:44Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You can eliminate the threat of e. coli by quickly searing the outside of a cut of meat then trimming that off before cutting up and/or grinding. I don’t even bother with the searing. I’ll eat raw meat cut from the center of a round or filet without any special prep. AFAIK, this is the only way to undercook ground beef safely. One starts with large cuts, pasteurizes the outside, grinds in clean equipment and avoids cross-contamination. Trimming isn’t necessary, though you can. Harold McGee suggests using a brief (one minute) poach, rather than searing, but the effect is the same whichever method is used. Not sure I would use this protocol in a restaurant (or would be permitted to), but ISTM reasonably safe for the home cook. BTW, **Deeg** is wrong about pasteurizing at 120 degrees. The minimum temp used in sous vide is 131 degrees and the time to achieve pasteurizition at that temp is more than an hour for even the thinnest cuts (much longer for thick ones). See Douglas Baldwin’s [Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking](http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html), especially Table 5.1. ---
**Author:** ![Amblydoper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@Amblydoper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amblydoper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/37 "2011-06-10T07:24:09Z")
By cooking food to a high temperature for a specific amount of time, you kill food borne pathogens and reduce the risk of food borne illness. However, TIME can also be used as a control. Food can be cooked to any temperature you wish as long as it is consumed or discarded after 4 or 6 hours (depending on local codes). [From 3-501-19 of the 2009 FDA food code.](http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm186451.htm#part3-5) So, **store your hamburger properly** , cook it however you want, and eat it within 4 hours. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/38 "2011-06-10T17:39:46Z")
Notice, though, that the time holding rule assumes the food is safe to eat in the first place and that it starts the four hour period either thoroughly chilled or thoroughly cooked. The problem with ground beef is that the particular strand of e. coli we’re worried about (O157:H7) is hazardous at very low exposure levels. That’s why thorough cooking is recommended (or the workaround TriPolar and I mention). Or, of course, one can simply take the chance. It’s not like O157:H7 is common. Just lethal. And, to clarify, similar to the time holding rule, there are sous vide applications where less than 131 degrees is used, but only when the food is safe to eat raw (as it won’t be pastuerized) and only for a limited time. See Baldwin. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/39 "2011-06-11T03:36:05Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > You can’t clean the grinding machinery well enough to keep it all out and surface e, coli gets distributed throughout the meat during grinding so it is only killed at higher cooking temperatures. This makes no sense. If heating the meat to a specific temperature (160F?) will kill the e. coli in the food, then cleaning at that same temperature would kill the e. coli in the grinding machinery, right? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679/40 "2011-06-11T03:50:09Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:39, topic:584679”] This makes no sense. If heating the meat to a specific temperature (160F?) will kill the e. coli in the food, then cleaning at that same temperature would kill the e. coli in the grinding machinery, right? [/QUOTE] It does make sense. What you are saying is true in theory but meat grinding equipment doesn’t get autoclaved as part of the process. We are talking about large machines with many parts and crevices. When I said ‘impossible’, I meant that in terms of practical use rather than what could be done if you absolutely had to. They don’t take every piece of grinding equipment apart every day in a meat factory or butcher shop to heat it to 160 degrees. It does get cleaned with lots and lots of water and disinfectants but there is always some e. coli left. It also gets constantly contaminated during use as residual meat is passed from one batch to the next. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-restaurants-keep-their-ground-beef-clean/584679.md?page=3)