# How do Russians and other societies with patronyms handle illegitimacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 29, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-russians-and-other-societies-with-patronyms-handle-illegitimacy/541181 "2010-05-29T13:55:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-russians-and-other-societies-with-patronyms-handle-illegitimacy/541181/21 "2010-05-31T16:26:11Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Someone asked this question here when I was still living in Eastern Europe, so I asked some of my colleagues. They were confounded by the question, and had no idea. I guess it doesn’t come up very often. By the way, they are also always confounded to realize that I don’t have a patronym for a middle name. The idea that parents can just pick a random middle name was just _crazy_ to them. Even the ethnic Turks had patronyms - they just had their father’s first name (without the -ov or -ova) as their middle name. (So, Ivana, daughter of Ivan was Ivana Ivanova, and Cibel daughter of Mehmed was Cibel Mehmed.) > > Modern Hebrew names aren’t patronymic, so it isn’t an issue. I mean, there are people who have names that _look_ patronymic, but they’re almost always made-up, created by people who were shedding their old Eastern European names. I guess that some people really did use their father’s name to create a new one, but then they were passed on to their children, instead of their children creating a new one based on their own father. ([Wikipedia has an article on this topic.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebraization_of_surnames)) And then sometimes they’re creative. When I lived in Israel, I once wondered if there are any people who adopted “Bat-\_\_\_\_\_” names, to indicate if they are the _daughter_ of someone, rather than the son. I looked it up in my phone book and yup, there were a couple listed. I remember specifically that one was Yael Bat-Yam, which translates as “Fawn Daughter of the Sea”. (Oh, Israeli names.) You know she just made that up. It is an issue for traditional Jews, though. A lot of ceremonies, such as calling a man up to read the Torah, use his Hebrew patronymic. I don’t know what exactly is done, because the “Ask the Rabbi” chat on [askmoses.com](http://askmoses.com) is down, but if I remember I’ll check with them later. If a Jewish person’s parent is not known at the time- say, Manny Goldstein was in a car accident, and his friends don’t know what his mother calls himself- he’d be called “son of Abraham our father/Sarah our mother” (depending on whether he’s in a patronymic or matronymic situation). (Oh, and a yael is an ibex. Close enough). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-russians-and-other-societies-with-patronyms-handle-illegitimacy/541181/22 "2010-05-31T17:04:17Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > (Oh, and a yael is an ibex. Close enough). Very off topic, but I wonder if that nails down the origin of [this legendary beast](http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast142.htm). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-russians-and-other-societies-with-patronyms-handle-illegitimacy/541181.md?page=1)