# How do the europeans want to justify burka (burqa?) ban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089 "2010-05-20T02:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/201 "2010-05-29T02:27:32Z")
You said the purpose of the veil is to treat women as property. Kindly post your cite. The purpose of the veil is women here dress with veils. It is just clothing. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/202 "2010-05-29T06:13:22Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Women in Saudi Arabia can get fined if they don’t wear the damned thing. Not ‘fined’ per se but the muttawah(religious police) would have a thing or two to say. Maybe a trip to the police station until a MALE family member came by to get you. When I lived in Saudi MOST not all Saudi women covered their faces, in Qatar not so much. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/203 "2010-05-29T06:44:57Z")
For what it’s worth, while the burqa/niqab is no doubt the item of clothing that sparked the law, the law itself does NOT specifically mention these items (or veils) nor any given religion or culture. From [this](http://www.france-info.com/france-politique-2010-01-12-un-texte-contre-la-burqa-mais-pas-encore-de-loi-391278-9-10.html)article, the law appears to read > [@](#): > > interdire le port de tenues ou d’accessoires ayant pour effet de dissimuler le visage dans les lieux ouverts au public et sur la voie publique. My translation: “forbids the wearing of (clothing) items or accessories that have the effect of obscuring (hiding) the face in places open to the public or on public roads/spaces” I have my doubts that winter scarfs will be asked to be removed in public during the dead of winter, however one should note that the average population probably at least pulls them down once indoors, or would not object to doing so in order to identify themselves. Same goes for helmets, hallowe’en masks, etc - all are banned under the wording of the law as-is. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/204 "2010-05-29T06:50:06Z")
Go on, what other culture has an item of clothing that quite blatantly states that all other women( or any specific group) are doing something wrong? If I wanted to let everyone know by the clothing I wore that I thought western women dress like sluts, I would have to get a t-shirt printed up stating so. Their manner of dressing is a direct criticism of the places they are living in and the only way you can deny that is with weasel words. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/205 "2010-05-29T06:57:40Z")
But why is it a direct criticism? When I dress revealingly am I saying that modest women aren’t showing it off enough? When a woman covers up every inch of skin but her hands/face/neck, but doesn’t wear a burqa, is she saying that anyone doing otherwise is slutty? If they’re not doing that, why is the burqa saying that? You still haven’t shown me why the burqa is saying that and western styles of dress aren’t. It kind of reeks of “It’s foreign, so I don’t like it.” ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/206 "2010-05-29T13:21:34Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The purpose of the veil is women here dress with veils. It is just clothing. [Woman’s rights in Islam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia) [Namus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namus) For those that don’t think of it they are just clothes. The purpose of the burkha is to protect the family’s honor i.e. husband’s honor. At the core of this is women as property of men that need to be protected by them and made to conform to man’s ideal of purity and chastity. I’m really surprised that you don’t know any of this, or worse ignore it, and choose to work in a different culture. Read the links. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/207 "2010-05-29T13:46:22Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > For what it’s worth, while the burqa/niqab is no doubt the item of clothing that sparked the law, the law itself does NOT specifically mention these items (or veils) nor any given religion or culture. From [this](http://www.france-info.com/france-politique-2010-01-12-un-texte-contre-la-burqa-mais-pas-encore-de-loi-391278-9-10.html)article, the law appears to read > > My translation: “forbids the wearing of (clothing) items or accessories that have the effect of obscuring (hiding) the face in places open to the public or on public roads/spaces” > > I have my doubts that winter scarfs will be asked to be removed in public during the dead of winter, however one should note that the average population probably at least pulls them down once indoors, or would not object to doing so in order to identify themselves. Same goes for helmets, hallowe’en masks, etc - all are banned under the wording of the law as-is. they banned helmets? this adds an interesting wrinkle to the debate for sure ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/208 "2010-05-29T13:57:11Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > [Woman’s rights in Islam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia) > > [Namus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namus) > > For those that don’t think of it they are just clothes. The purpose of the burkha is to protect the family’s honor i.e. husband’s honor. At the core of this is women as property of men that need to be protected by them and made to conform to man’s ideal of purity and chastity. > I’m really surprised that you don’t know any of this, or worse ignore it, and choose to work in a different culture. Read the links. I read the links. I did not see any mention of women being ‘property.’ Kindly stop saying things that are not true. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/209 "2010-05-29T14:04:55Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I read the links. I did not see any mention of women being ‘property.’ Kindly stop saying things that are not true. Oh, it didn’t mention property? I guess if something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck, and looks like a duck, in your world it wouldn’t be a duck? Or do you need a cite for it before calling it a duck? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/210 "2010-05-29T14:42:23Z")
Yes, if it’s a goose. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/211 "2010-05-29T14:47:47Z")
Duck and run. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/212 "2010-05-29T14:49:34Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > they banned helmets? this adds an interesting wrinkle to the debate for sure Most European countries already have provision for banning masks and helmets that obscure the face in public places. I think it’s still illegal to wear IRA-style balaclavas in the UK, for instance, when out in public. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/213 "2010-05-29T15:27:40Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Oh, it didn’t mention property? I guess if something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck, and looks like a duck, in your world it wouldn’t be a duck? Or do you need a cite for it before calling it a duck? Previously, you seemed to have an ability to read minds and ascribe motives to entire cultures with a broad brush. Now you admit you do not. I accept your apology. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/214 "2010-05-29T16:12:29Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Previously, you seemed to have an ability to read minds and ascribe motives to entire cultures with a broad brush. Now you admit you do not. I accept your apology. Have you even been to the Middle East? And have you ever left the expat compound you most likely work in? Why do you think that women wear the Burkha there then? It isn’t just because they like the ‘flattering’ lines and the monotone colour scheme. It is because their culture and laws either make them, or it is so ingrained in their cultural programming that they can justify the wearing of it as a choice. You read the links I provided and haven’t even begun to understand the issues. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/215 "2010-05-29T16:17:07Z")
I have been in the Middle East _all day!_ And for 13 years before that! I have lived in Saudi Arabia and in Qatar, where I taught women. I work with Saudis every day. What is your source of expertise? If you asked me to guess why women dress like they dress, I would suppose they do so because everyone else dresses that way. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/216 "2010-05-29T20:05:08Z")
Shouldn’t you have been working from the inside to try and disavow them of this ridiculous and alienating practice then, seeing as you actually taught the women at one point? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/217 "2010-05-29T21:26:47Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > .. where I taught women. .. Hmmm, usually teaching isn’t a one way deal. I’d of thought you’d have picked up a few things along the way, too. My source is working in Yemen for 9 years, where I actually spent time learning why things are the way they are. Makes it easier to live, manage and supervise in a different culture if you have a clue as to what they are all about. > [@](#): > > If you asked me to guess why women dress like they dress, I would suppose they do so because everyone else dresses that way. Rather than because it is illegal for them not to? At least in Saudi it is. In Yemen it is more cultural and the majority of women do so because of it. So much so, that I’ve seen women working in the fields with a full burkha throwing hay into the back of a truck while their men folk worked just dressed in shorts. It must be her choice, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/218 "2010-05-30T02:36:16Z")
So whence comes your near supernatural understanding of the motivations of Islamic women? Years of immersion? Long hours of study? A microchip in your head that allows you to hear the voices of the innermost thoughts of people you see on TV? Tell me, in all of world history, can you think of one culture that thought their own sisters, mothers and daughters were property? An example please of a culture that treats _only_ females as property. It is almost as if you are making stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/219 "2010-05-30T04:20:37Z")
If the man can determine if and when his wife can leave the house, what she can do, and who she can see, then I guess in your world that is equality rather than ownership. Sorry, I’m done discussing this with you. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089/220 "2010-05-30T13:20:32Z")
No, I did not make a claim to understand the reason why Arab society is as it is. You did. I do hope you will share with us how you can know why a person does what he does. Oh? What’s that? You’re going away? When come back, bring pie! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-the-europeans-want-to-justify-burka-burqa-ban/540089.md?page=12)